Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / Spoilers / crossbow vs bow
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Tristar Unregistered user |
It looks like crossbows do more damage than bows. So wouldn't a crossbow be the most effective between the two? Is there something Im missing like the amount of energy per shot? Do high elves get any kind of extra advantage with bows compared to crossbows? |
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Maelstrom Registered user The Knight of the Black Rose Last page view: 3116 days, 6 hours, 17 minutes and 18 seconds ago. |
No, you're not missing anything. Just like in real life, the crossbow is more effective then a bow. It's easier to hit a target with, it packs more punch. The only drawback - crossbows rust, crossbow bolts (quarrels) rust and are less common then arrows (which are just plain sticks). You'll have a lot more trouble finding the ammo to the crossbow, and since it's used by gnomes and dwarves, magical quarrels are less common and less powerful. Your choice - technology vs magic. Pure damage vs special abilities (more slaying). P.S. Did you know that one of the popes has excomunicated the crossbow as an unchristian weapon, and everyone who uses a crossbow against another christian shall be damned? You can only use a crossbow against Arabs and Jews - at least it's been that way since the 15th century. A pessimist sees a dark tunnel. An optimist sees a light at the end of that tunnel. A realist sees a train. And the train driver sees three idiots on the tracks. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 10/14/2004 at 17:16 (GMT -5) by Maelstrom] |
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Naiyor (not logged) Unregistered user |
The only reason i could possible find is that arrows are much more common than quarrels...although once you really get going ther is not much of a difference. I generally prefer bows or slings for that reason. But you cant deny that Xbows do more damage!! |
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Alex Registered user Master Necromancer Last page view: 6507 days, 5 hours, 27 minutes and 35 seconds ago. |
Actually, in real life longbows > crossbows. A good archer can fire two arrows from a bow in a few seconds, whereas it takes a long time to reload a crossbow. Evidence: agincourt. What do you wish for? wands of cat repellent_ [Edited 1 time, last edit on 10/14/2004 at 17:42 (GMT -5) by Alex] |
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Maelstrom Registered user The Knight of the Black Rose Last page view: 3116 days, 6 hours, 17 minutes and 18 seconds ago. |
It depends on the crossbow acctually. If you mean siege crossbows (the ones with 2 handles), then longbows win, since it's like comparing cavalry to catapults - the siege crossbow can shoot through 3 men in full armour and still pack enough punch to kill a horse. But it takes only one shot to rip a knight apart, where you have to be really accurate with a bow to kill an armoured man with 1 shot. Agincourt was evidence, that tactics are more important then sheer numbers, since the French were simply dumb asses, like most nobles who want to be field marshalls. Crossbows have a longer range, do more nasty damage and are much easier to aim. A pessimist sees a dark tunnel. An optimist sees a light at the end of that tunnel. A realist sees a train. And the train driver sees three idiots on the tracks. |
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Morio Registered user Holy Champion of ADoM Last page view: 3897 days, 9 hours, 4 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
but there is more class using a bow, anyone can fire a crossbow, but it requires some skill to fire an arrow with a bow with any accuracy "I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but I know World War 4 with be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein |
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Maelstrom Registered user The Knight of the Black Rose Last page view: 3116 days, 6 hours, 17 minutes and 18 seconds ago. |
Exactly. Bows require class, skill and all that lordly jazz. There is honour in dieing from an arrow, because the archer wasted most of his life practicing the use of that weapon. A crossbow requires an hour or two of practice, and you're good at it - thus, any peasant can use it, and there is no honour in dieing from a hand of an unskilled peasant. That's the whole deal with the excomunication - a peasant can kill a king from a crossbow with little effort. The king being blessed by the pope and all. Anyway - you want class, use a sword and a bow. You want effects only, use a spear and a crossbow. A pessimist sees a dark tunnel. An optimist sees a light at the end of that tunnel. A realist sees a train. And the train driver sees three idiots on the tracks. |
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Tristar Unregistered user |
Another technical question...in the guidebook it says that the artifact sun's messenger does 2d6 missile damage while farslayer does 1d3 damage. Is that true then? Would sun's messenger be a better missile weapon then? |
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Alex Registered user Master Necromancer Last page view: 6507 days, 5 hours, 27 minutes and 35 seconds ago. |
my calculations: d6 avg. = (1+2+3+4+5+6)/6 = 3.5 2d6 avg = 7 sun's messenger avg damage = 7+15 = 22 d3 avg = (1+2+3)/3 = 2 far slayer avg damage = 2+18 = 20 so, sun's messenger does more damage. However, far slayer has a better to-hit bonus and as we've discussed quarrels do more damage than arrows. then again, sun's messenger has the (quite large) advantage of being an undead slayer. So I'd say sun's messenger just about wins. What do you wish for? wands of cat repellent_ |
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Maelstrom Registered user The Knight of the Black Rose Last page view: 3116 days, 6 hours, 17 minutes and 18 seconds ago. |
It's not correct. Add the fact, that Quarrels do 2d6 damage, arrows do 1d6. The missile damage is what damage the WEAPON does IF it is used as a missile. Meaning - if you want to throw the crossbow, it does 1d3+18, if you throw the bow, it does 2d6+15. The damage is 18,5 (Messenger, 15+1d6 from the arrow) vs 25 (Slayer, 18+2d6 from the quarrel) if using regular ammo. Ofcourse, if we are using the maximum amount, then it's bow: 15+2d6+8= 25-35 (30 avg) vs Crossbow: 18+4d6+8= 30-50 (40 avg). Alex's calculation is accurate IF you consider throwing your artefact at the enemy. If you run out of missiles, the bow has the edge on the crossbow, otherwise, it's only usefull for the enchantments (longbow of hunting and undead slaying from the Messanger IF you have no slaying ammo). A pessimist sees a dark tunnel. An optimist sees a light at the end of that tunnel. A realist sees a train. And the train driver sees three idiots on the tracks. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 10/17/2004 at 07:27 (GMT -5) by Maelstrom] |
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Alex Registered user Master Necromancer Last page view: 6507 days, 5 hours, 27 minutes and 35 seconds ago. |
whoops. ah hell, I never use missile weapons anyway. What do you wish for? wands of cat repellent_ |
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Morio Registered user Holy Champion of ADoM Last page view: 3897 days, 9 hours, 4 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
all i all the differences between 1d6 and 2d6 do not matter that much after gaining a few levels in bows or crossbows "I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but I know World War 4 with be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein |
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yeahyeah Unregistered user |
morio has it in the end. you other guys are spoutin out all these figures for nothing. look, start a character, use a bow, see how far you can get. it's that simple. archers are one of the most powerful characters in the game. i doubt you'll ever find a sun's messenger, i've only ever found one once and it wasn't with an archer, even so it just doesn't matter. let the people who design the games worry about allt he numbers, just go kill monsters and see for yorself. |
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Maelstrom Registered user The Knight of the Black Rose Last page view: 3116 days, 6 hours, 17 minutes and 18 seconds ago. |
Acctually, Sun's Messenger is a sure thing to have if you are an elf, or an archer, or both, and Far Slayer is one of the most popular artefacts (you can pickpocket it, you can dig it up, it can be dropped randomly, it can be granted from forces above, and it has a low danger level). Crossbows are better IMO, period. And they help in the quickling tree, while bows don't :P A pessimist sees a dark tunnel. An optimist sees a light at the end of that tunnel. A realist sees a train. And the train driver sees three idiots on the tracks. |
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Morio_unlogged Unregistered user |
Maelstrom wrote: "And they help in the quickling tree, while bows don't", and why is that? |
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firestorm Unregistered user |
Since when is sun's messenger a sure thing to have?? I play elves all the time, have played archers like 5 or 6 times, and got sun's messenger one only. Other times i got those damn boots of divine messenger, they're ok but i prefer seven leaguers. I think what maelstrom or whatever his name is is trying to say is that its important to do more damage per one attack against quicklings since they get all those extra attacks, so better with xbows....*but* then again you have the weight requirement for entering the tree.and if youre armed with far slayers, and a few quarrels, you cant really carry much more. |
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Alex Registered user Master Necromancer Last page view: 6507 days, 5 hours, 27 minutes and 35 seconds ago. |
No, it's because you are guaranteed to find hand crossbows + dark elven bolts in the quickling tree, while you can't bring in enough arrows for a bow. What do you wish for? wands of cat repellent_ |
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Twinge Registered user Communist in Disguise Last page view: 5193 days, 17 hours, 44 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
"It's not correct... The missile damage is what damage the WEAPON does IF it is used as a missile. Meaning - if you want to throw the crossbow, it does 1d3+18, if you throw the bow, it does 2d6+15. Alex's calculation is accurate IF you consider throwing your artefact at the enemy. If you run out of missiles, the bow has the edge on the crossbow..." I can't let this stuff stand -- This is all wrong. The numbers listed modify the damage when using it as a MISSLE weapon, as it should be. The damage for using it as a melee weapon is completely seperate. Incidentally, the artifact bow does actually do more damage in melee as well if you really wanted to use it for such :P Check your Alt+Q, you can see the changes easily there. Also, Farslayer can NOT be pickpocketed; it weighs WELL over the limit of 10s (unless perhaps you're playing an older version where it was possible). Farslayer has a rather HIGH danger level as well. It has the standard artifact creation probability of 25 (only wyrmlance is higher IIRC - 50) but a whopping danger level of 20. You won't find that in the WDL for example. Of course, Sun's Messenger is even rarer; it's danger level is 30. Personally, I hate Farslayer because it doesn't do that much more than a decent regular heavy crossbow and it weighs a ton. Sun's Messenger slays undead at least. The natural creation probability of crossbows versus bows match up all around (special ammo, regular, and the bows themselves - the only differences I noticed were the long bow of hunting and eternium quarrels being a bit rarer than eternium arrows... I suppose hand crossbows too but those don't really count), but bows and arrows are more common because there are many more creatures which use bows as weapons and randomly drop them (and the arrows) specifically. Another consideration is fletching. You'll fletch twice as many arrows as quarrels. So... bows are more common and have a superior artifact while crossbows are a little rarer, are heavier, can rust, and have a slightly higher ToHit and Damage. (Might make a small difference early; almost unnoticeable if you get any kind skill going. +2 more to hit and +5 damage? that's almost nothing. It's even a bit less for short/light bows: +1Hit/+4Dam.) The only other factor is range, and I have not tested this enough to say either way. Overall though, I say use both of them. you won't have quite as much proficiency, but you can get 9-10 fairly easily, and that way you can use all of the foo slaying ammo you find instead of only half of it. It's somewhat nice to have some crossbow skill in the quickling tree, but you can get your skill to 8ish easily without using crossbows primarily. Besides, I personally consider the quickling tree worthless unless you really need those boots (to sacrifice to the d.ratling, probably). Btw Alex, an easier way for checking averages for die rolls: Take your die type, add one, divide by 2, and multiply by number of die rolled. So for 10d50, (51 / 2) * 10 = 255. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 1/21/2005 at 19:57 (GMT -5) by Twinge] |
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 XaXeXiXoXu Registered user Ancient Weight Dragon Last page view: 6974 days, 16 hours, 15 minutes and 31 seconds ago. |
Let me just say that training in both bow and crossbow to at LEAST mastery is a requirement for each of my characters. I might even do slings and thrown spears up to a competent level. To me, ranged attack is a key part to playing a successful character of any class. Then again, I do take an extremely long time in the game to get around to beating it. I don't see any point in rushing it. My current character has been around for about 2.5 game years, and I'm about ready for the Mana Temple. XaXeXiXoXu, the ancient weight dragon, breathes weight at you! You are suddenly overburdened! |
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Warlord* Unregistered user |
Well, most people rush it for the 90 day limit, before the background corruption really hits in. |