Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / Spoilers / Sell your skills
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 4891 days, 21 hours, 59 minutes and 19 seconds ago. |
If you could sell your skills, would you? I would! Well, at least some of them. Come to think about it, I suppose I would sell almost any of them, if the price was right. Of course that depends on what PC I'm using. I would not sell the concentration skill for any price, were I a spellcaster, but for fighter PC's I would. What if there was a merchant on the road to the Drakalor chain, that could buy your skills. How much would you take for each one? Here is a list of my musings, each price reflects only what I think THAT skill is worth. I will not consider the value of any skill, in combination with other skills. That would make things really complicated. For entertainment purposes, I will form the evaluations as haggling sessions. For those who don't want to read the whole thing, I put a quick overview at the bottom. <Alchemy> gut: Not less than 80,000 gold. Merchant: C'mon! This skill is about as useful for the early game, as a burb root. I'll offer 10,000 gold for it. gut: This skill eventually lets me blind my enemies, extend my life span, heal my wounds, reverse aging, recharge wands, and even increase my stats! Also, after I gain protection from fire, I can use offensive alchemy. It's an almost unlimited source of fireballs, that cost no PP's to cast. It's worth at least 60,000 gold. Merchant: If you sell it though, think of all the advantages the gold could bring. You could buy many nice items in the black market, not to mention piety, should you find an altar. Wouldn't the PV points, and extra prayers serve you better in the short term. I'll go as high as 30,000 gold. gut: Nope. You make some good points, but I'm not guaranteed of any of that. The shop may have no great items, and I might not find an early alter. Granted, if I make it to dwarftown I could still spend the money there. However, if I make it all the way to DT without the extra PV and piety, I could probably continue on without them, better to keep the skill. Besides, there are other ways of getting gold by then. I will not part with this skill for less than 50,000 gold. Merchant: It takes quite a while to train that skill, and it can use up two great potions to make just one. 40,000 gold is my final offer. gut: *Carefully considers gaining 40,000 starting gold, in exchange for giving up the Alchemy skill* Well, I can always hope for potions and scrolls of education. Sold! <Alertness> gut: This skill isn't even wishable! 70,000 gold. Merchant: Let's not be hasty here. Sure it can save your life against the ACW and the Archmage, but where else does it make much difference? I'd say more like 20,000 gold. gut: Let us not forget ogre magi. Even though, the ACW and Archmage may be only two fights, they are most likely the two toughest fights in the game! I don't under value any advantage I can get over either of them. Alertness also helps out with avoiding traps, and that can save equipment, and maybe my life. It's worth at least 50,000 gold. Merchant: Detect traps works better, and only costs a few grand. I'll offer 40,000 gold, but no more. gut: *considers that there are many other tactics for dealing with the ACW and Archmage* I'll take it, but I think I'm getting jipped! <Appraising> gut: As good as this skill is, it should fetch about 30,000 gold, I'd say. Merchant: As good as that skill is, it should fetch sticks, and be named spot. 1,000 gold. gut: It helps me know what weapons and armor are worth trying in the early game. It can potentially save me from equipping lousy items like gauntlets of peace. 20,000 gold is reasonable. Merchant: If you don't mind having cursed armor rated as 'good', then yes, it's a fine talent. Think about it, just how many extra points of PV do you expect to profit from that skill. Three? Four? It's mostly only useful for helping you decide on which armor, medium shield, and gauntlets you want to chance. Add all the differences up, and you could just as easily acquire that many PV points from the black market, for perhaps 3,000 gold. gut: Cursed armor with some PV doesn't bother me, it will serve nicely until I can uncurse it. The skill is valuable to me, because I don't want to pack four sets of armor back to the black market, just to get an idea of which one I should try on. I'm fine with having a quick estimate, I'll deal with the down sides if they come. Also, you leave out other items, like rings, amulets, and most importantly, ego weapons. 10,000 seems more fair. Merchant: I left them out for a reason. Most all rings and amulets are beneficial, you don't need a special skill to tell you that. Wouldn't the gold serve you better? Potions rated as 'good' could still goof you up big time. Scrolls also shouldn't be experimented with, just because of a 'good' ranking. As for ego weapons, well, it's not THAT hard to pack them to a store for a more professional estimate. More to the point, if you find an early alter, you can 'equip ID' weapons with no danger. They don't come in auto-locking versions, like armor. How about 4,000 gold? gut: Good points, but I just wouldn't want to give up the skill for 4,000 gold. I don't think I'm guaranteed of getting enough in return. Shall we say 5,000? Merchant: Deal. <Archery> gut: It gives a nice bonus to missile accuracy and damage, and it opens up two great missile talents. I wouldn't want to part with it for less than say, 50,000 gold. Merchant: Missiles can be effective without that skill though, their damage and accuracy increase quickly enough, just by using them. Also, the 'regular' missile talents give a nice enough boost on their own. 10,000 gold. gut: More damage per shot might not be absolutely needed, but it can sure make the game more enjoyable. The same goes for shooting faster. Don't forget, most of the bosses in the game, should be taken out with archery. The extra damage, accuracy, and speed do come in handy then 30,000 gold. Merchant: I agree, but in a place like the ToEF, archery is seldom an option with most missiles. Also, the benefits may be nice, but are they 30,000 starting gold worth of nice? With slaying ammo, would you really notice THAT much of a difference, when fighting bosses? I think not. Remember, you can buy a lot in the early game for about... 20,000 gold. gut: *considers that the combination of slaying ammo, missile training, and the regular missile talents, sadly devalue the archery skill* OK, 20,000 gold it is. <Athletics> gut: It gives me extra speed! 50,000 gold please. Merchant: Extra speed kills your exp. gains. 5,000 gold. gut: I can 'bloat' and 'strain!' myself all over the place, that will cancel it out. 30,000 gold. Merchant: So you just received some penalties to your DV, and combat accuracy, in exchange for bringing your speed back to where it was to start with?! 2000 gold! gut: The point is, that I have the speed if I need it. I can drop some large rations, get my speed boost, and outrun monsters if I need to. In addition to extra speed, athletics also helps some of my states increase. Perhaps 20,000 gold. Merchant: Oh, I see now, but most of the states that are helped, can be increased by other means. 15,000 gold is a good price. gut: *weighs the benefits of 15,000 gold Vs (mainly) the occasional speed benefits* Sounds good. <Backstabbing> gut: How about 300 gold? Merchant: Perhaps more lik- I'm sorry, what did you say? gut: I said, How about 300 gold? Merchant: Yeah, that's what I thought you said. I was just checking to make sure I heard right. Of course I'm not complaining, but don't you think it's worth more? gut: Nope. It just seems to me, that any monster I would be tempted to use it on, should probably be taken out from a distance. Besides, it can wreak havoc on my alignment. Merchant: 300 gold it is. <Bridge Building> gut: It takes about 25 gold to buy a large ration. Merchant: What! You want 25 gold for that! Get out of my shop. gut: I see your point. 10 gold. Merchant: 5 gold, and don't tell a sole about it, for as long as you live. gut: Sold! *sucker* <Climbing> gut: I don't know if I could climb out of stupid holes in the ground, without this skill. So I guess I can't sell it. Sorry. <Concentration> gut: Not selling this one for anything less than 5,000,000 gold. Merchant: You couldn't even CARRY that much gold! gut: I'll stash it in a farmer's inventory, and name him 'Deadman walking'. Merchant: Gettin' kinda creepy there gut. Let's just agree that for your gray elven wizard, the concentration skill just shouldn't be sold. There are classes like weaponsmith though... gut: Oh, them. Well, I'd still say it's pretty valuable. Without it, the option of spellcasting is rather off the table. Maybe I would sell for 50,000 gold. Merchant: That would be too much. 50,000 gold would be insane for starting gold. All you would be giving up, is possible spellcasting, way down the road. To make up for that small loss, I'd say 25,000 gold. gut: Not really. The spellcasting isn't way down the road, it's right around the corner. As soon as I come across some potions/wands of wonder, and a few good books, I'm ready to go. 40,000 gold please. Merchant: OK, it's a nice skill. One of the best even, but 40,000 starting gold is still huge. That would last you well into dwarftown, and still make a big difference there. Would you turn down an offer of 35,000 gold? gut: I suppose I would take 35,000 gold, but only for non-spellcasters. <Cooking> gut: I don't really play hurthlings. Merchant: But if you did? gut: Um, hmm... 4,000 gold? Merchant: Throw in the cooking set, and you've got a deal! gut: *why not, I was going to throw it out anyway* Why not, I was going to throw it out anyway. <Courage> gut: I can't sell this skill for starting gold, I don't start with it! Merchant: Let's delude ourselves, into thinking that you do. gut: OK. Make me an offer. Merchant: Me.. oh, well OK. Ummm, how about 2,500 gold? gut: That's a lot of large rations! Deal! Merchant: *I have buyers remorse* <Detect Item Status> gut: I'm a walking altar! I don't even have to plunk down many skill increases for it to start working nicely. It can be great for no other reason than convenience. 20,000 gold. Merchant: It doesn't work all the time, and is rendered obsolete by finding an altar. 10,000 gold. gut: What part of 'for no other reason than convenience' do you not understand? Also, it's even handy for the mid and late game. I mean, I don't want to read a scroll of ID, for every weapon I come across. In addition, I don't want to miss out on that ego weapon for even a little while. I'll come down to 15,000 gold, but not a coin less. Merchant: Well, if you won't sell for less, I guess you've got a deal. <Detect Traps> gut: If I start with it, that means it starts out at a decent level. (Hmm, that was strange. It seemed as though those words just occured to me, from out of nowhere!). I think 10,000 gold sounds fair. Merchant: But you can buy it for 3,500! That seems like a fair price to me. gut: Yes, but it's not available right away, and I would then have to train it from scratch. Besides, I might decide to kill Yergius, *gut's eyes suddenly shift to his melee weapon*, if he gives me a reason to be... irritated. Let's say 7,500 gold. Merchant: *realizes gut is mentally unstable* Deal. <Disarm Traps> gut: Once trained to 100, this skill is a good way to disarm any trap. Maybe 7,500 gold? Merchant: Before trained to 100, it's a good way to get your face blown off your head. More like 500 gold. gut: Yeah, but that's only for floor traps. Any knuckle-dragger with a room temperature IQ would know that! Your safe enough with door traps, and that's a big help in the early game. 5,000 gold, and you're getting a deal here. Merchant: Deal. <Dodge> gut: A fantastic skill, it gives up to 10 DV points at 100. 50,000 gold. Merchant: Fantastic? Are we talking about the same skill here? For the end game, 10 points of DV isn't that much. By the way, when was the last time you got the dodge skill to 100, with any PC other than a monk or something? Doesn't it normally get stuck around 60. That gives a grand total of +3 to DV. 10,000 gold. gut: ... Merchant: ... Well? gut: Goodness. I guess I always thought it was better... However, a sudden inspiration has just entered my so-called mind! Dodge is a unique way to improve my PC. If I want to optomize my PC, there is no substitute for this skill. I won't take less than 15,000 gold. Merchant: I think something funny is going on here, but it's a deal. <Find weakness> gut: I don't think I'm interested in selling this one. Critical hits are a HUGE advantage in battle. With a weak PC, it may be the ONLY way to inflict damage on 'high PV' monsters. I'd have to get at least 90,000 for it. Merchant: It's nice, but it's not like the concentration skill is for wizards. It is possible for a melee PC to do without it. That, on it's own, shows that it's not that valuable. 30,000 gold. gut: I wouldn't WANT to do without it though! It makes tough enemies less tough. It makes long fights shorter. It allows me to efficiently kill greater molochs with missiles! OK, the game is still beatable without the skill, but that's not much of a knock. 70,000 gold. Merchant: This one isn't going to come cheap, is it? I do think that 70,000 gold is just too much, that's almost a precrown! 35,000 gold is a much more sensible amount. gut: Even precrowns come with no guarantees, I might wind up with the black tome, or some dull weapon I'll never touch. I prefer the benefit of a nice reliable skill. The skill is worth at least 60,000 gold. Merchant: Ahhch!- I mean, hold on a second, 35,000 starting gold is nothing to sneeze at. That would still purchase a LOT of early game piety, equal to many, many, divine HP's refills. That should be just as valuable to a fighter, as more critical hits. Remember, prayer works even better than blessed potions of extra healing. You can use prayer when confused, or stunned, AND you can't lose them to item destruction. You could probably even buy enough piety for 'doom' removal for, say 40,000 gold. gut: The abundant piety WOULD be nice. The possible 'doom' removal is really nice, but there are many other ways of getting piety. There are precious few ways to get the find weakness skill, basically start with it, or wish for it. Besides, piety can be lost the same as items can. One alignment switch, and you're sunk. I'll come down to 45,000 gold. Merchant: *wipes some sweat from his brow* How about penetrating weapons? How about weapons that increase your critical hit rate? Surely they would de-value the find weakness skill somewhat. If you have the critical hit bonus from your weapon, you won't benefit as much from having the skill. In light of that, I'll offer- gut: Actually, the bonus from the find weakness skill, stacks nicely with +crit weapons. The price is firm at 45,000 gold Merchant: Very well. 45,000. <First aid> gut: Make an offer, any offer. Merchant: Well this skill is only really useful against early game poison. That's if you have pumped almost all of your skill increases into it . How about 100 gold? gut: Indeed! As soon as you find your first spider corpse, it's pretty much completely useless. It's worthless against sickness, and helps zero for the late game. I mean, every skill increase you put into this, is pretty much just tossed aw- Merchant: Did I say 100 gold? I meant to say 50 gold. gut: *considers that he sometimes talks too much* OK, it's a de- Hey wait a second. A thought just occured to me- Merchant: Another one! How is it, that every time you get one of these 'inspired' thoughts, your prices happen to sky-rocket?! gut: No idea. Anyway, first aid helps a lot to reduce early-game bleeding. That's probably it's most important use. In light of that inspired fact, I would not give up the first aid skill, for less than 3,000 gold. <Fletchery> gut: More missiles, a welcome addition to any inventory. 10,000 gold. Merchant: When do you get those missiles though? After you kill a bunch of trees in the animated forest. By then, you should have plenty of missiles anyway. 500 gold. gut: ...You mouth-breathing idiot. You DARE to insult the fletchery skill?! *gut hastily fletches up 14 arrows of merchant slaying* Merchant: Whoa. Peace! I am just saying, it might not be so great. That's all. gut: Listen you writhing mass of primal stupidity, any creature that's not on the far-left of the evolutionary chart can tell you, that it doesn't take long to train the fletchery skill. You can have it to 100 in no time, and the hatchet to boot. It can be a great source of quarrels for the early-game. 7,500 gold, firm. Merchant: *nervously eyes the arrows of merchant slaying* OK, deal. <Food preservation> gut: Hmm, let's see. Higher chance for gaining all resistances earlier, which can save your life in so many ways. Higher chance for early teleport control, which opens the door for a darkforge raid. Higher chance for stat increases, especially starvation + ogre = an insanely high St stat. Higher chance for potions of cure corruption, by bring- Merchant: *grimaces* You're enjoying this, aren't you? gut: Higher chance for an emergency early game teleport, in the way of a displacer beast corpse. Higher chance for speed increases through quickling corpses. Higher chance for being able to restore intrinsics that may be lost from pool drinking. Higher chance fo- Merchant: Just name a price already! gut: 50,000 gold. Merchant: Done! Next! <Gardening> Merchant: Mwah ha ha ha ha! gut: Oh, bugger. Merchant: *grinning evilly* Go on gut, list all the benefits of gardening. We're waiting. gut: Well, if you're a farmer- Merchant: Ha ha aha ha ah! gut: It could happen! Merchant: HA HA HA HAA! Oh! My ribs hurt! gut: I meant, some OTHER player might try a farmer. Merchant: Maybe, but the skill still sucks. gut: Farmers start with herb seeds, so it's a possible supply of endless early-game herbs. 5,000 gold. Merchant: It's possible, but a lot of work, and that lowers the value of it somewhat. I'd say more like 2,500 gold. 100 <Gemology> gut: Another good one. With it I can get lots of powerful magical crystals. I can scum PC:2 for a horde of valuable gems. Just for the crystals of knowledge alone, it's worth 50,000 gold. Merchant: The key word in all that mess, is 'can'. You 'can' get all those crystals, but DO you? This skill is different from most other great ones, in that you have to bore yourself stupid to benefit from it. Having a skill you don't use is like starting the game with a spellbook of wish. Potentially exploitable, but useless if you aren't willing to put in some major work. 10,000 gold. gut: True, but I can still usually get at least one crystal of darkness on my way through the PC. That's enough to save a PC's life all by it's self. Remember, there can be more than one ant room in a game, so it's quite likely I'll find a few other nice crystals and gems along the way, even if I'm not scumming for them. Let us not forget though, that there are huge gains to be had, with enough work. 30,000 gold. Merchant: Compare the occasional useful gem, in comparison with the piety that 20,000 gold could bring. gut: Gemology could potentially bring me unlimited gold though! Merchant: Yes, if you scum for it, which you won't. gut: OK, 20,000 gold, but I'm getting ripped off. <Haggling> gut: Being a merchant, how much do YOU think this skill is worth? Merchant: I would say about 1000 gold. gut: *applies the haggling skill* Merchant: Nay, no coin less. I'd better raise the prices I guess! 700 gold. gut: *applies the haggling skill again* Merchant: Nay, no coin less. I'd better raise the prices I guess! 400 gold. gut: *intensively applies the haggling skill* Merchant: Nay, no coin less. I'd better raise the prices I guess! 200 gold. gut: I'll take it. <Healing> gut: Starting with this skill is really nice. It helps me to survive, and allows flexibility in choosing Terinyo quests. 80,000 gold. Merchant: It can be easily acquired in-game though, and that de-values it tremendously. 5,000 gold. gut: If I don't start with it, I almost HAVE to chose the carpenter quest. That means giving up a potion of cure corruption, and an artifact. I also don't get to chose between the herbalism skill, and the frost bolt items. Those are really great rewards to miss out on. Starting with the healing skill is worth 50,000 gold at least. Merchant: It might not be fun, but you can still use herbs without having the herbalism skill. Those reward items don't help much for the early game anyway. Since you mention healing, in addition to still being able to get the healing skill, you can buy a lot of divine healing with 15,000 gold. gut: It's a deal, but if a PC starts with neither healing or herbalism, that price would have to be more than tripled. <Herbalism> gut: Another handy skill to start with. Merchant: Another skill that is easy to acquire in-game. gut: Keethrax is not an easy fight! Merchant: Generate, leave, return, kill. Shall we say the same for herbalism as for healing? 15,000 gold. gut: Sounds fair, but if a PC starts with neither healing or herbalism, it would cost nearly triple. <Law> gut: If I started with this skill, I would give you all my starting gold to take it. Merchant: That sounds a bit too hig- Wait a second, did you say you would pay me to take it? gut: In a heartbeat! Who wants to listen to the game scold them for killing beggars. Not to mention the constant nagging while applying the pickpocketing skill. In this game, a conscience is a real nuisance. Merchant: Oh, I see. Well, in that case, it's a deal. <Listening> gut: How about 100 gold? Merchant: Huh? gut: I SAID, HOW ABOUT 100 GOLD?! Merchant: OK, it's a deal. gut: Here you go, one listening skill. Merchant: Nice doing business with you. gut: Huh? Merchant: I SAID, IT WAS NICE DOING BUSINESS WITH YOU! gut: HUH?! <Literacy> gut: Spellcasters need this, they can't sell it for less than 150,000 gold. Merchant: You can get it back! Just make it to dwarftown, and kill your quest monster. You might even get a dark sage corpse earlier, 40,000 gold. gut: How exactly does a spellcaster make it to dwarftown with no spells? Still 150,000 gold. Merchant: Well, you can still use melee and missiles. Rocks work fine, and are abundant on PC:2. Once you get to dwarftown 50,000 gold would make it worth the trouble. gut: Yes, it can be done, but it wouldn't be fun. Once re-acquired, it would take forever to train it to 100. That's just a lot of work to go through, for such little return, and gold isn't that hard to get at that point in the game. I could just grab a Si, some cooked lizards, and 'w5' my way to riches. That would be much less hassle than playing an illiterate spellcaster. I still say it's worth 150,000 gold. Merchant: Would take a lot of 'w5'ing to get that kind of gold. Let's split the difference, and say 100,000 gold. gut: Fine. Now, how about non-spellcasters? Merchant: 20,000 gold? gut: Done. <Metallurgy> gut: Do we really need to do this? Merchant: As a formality, yes. gut: 2 gold pieces. Merchant: 1. gut: Deal. <Mining> gut: I did some mining in that one game... that once. Merchant: 1,000 gold. Going once. gut: If I have an urge to scum gemology, or smithing this could... Merchant: 500 gold. Going twice. gut: *frowns* Sold : ( <Music> gut: Cats. 5,000 gold. Merchant: Other methods work just as well. 500 gold. gut: Pets. 3,000 gold. Merchant: You don't use pets. 1,000 gold. gut: Um, well, OK. <Necromancy> gut: Only one PC COULD even sell this skill. A necromancer without necromancy is like a mindcrafter without sucky-ness. 50,000 gold. Merchant: It costs a mana point to use it! 5,000 gold. gut: It trains mana, so you actually wind up with higher mana, it just takes a while. Still 50,000 gold. Merchant: All pets and slaves are exp. drainers. You're better off without them. 10,000 gold. gut: They can keep pesky monsters busy, while you do things like gather herbs. Also, in the late game, you can use quickling corpses to make some very powerful slaves. 40,000 gold. Merchant: A scroll of familiar summoning does about the same, and doesn't drain your mana stat. 35,000 gold. gut: Well, I guess that's fair enough. Deal. <Pick locks> gut: A good way to disarm traps. 7,500 gold. Merchant: Just kick the door. 1,000 gold pieces. gut: Item destruction. 5,000 gold. Merchant: Drop your items, then kick the door. 2,000 gold pieces. gut: Wow! My brain just recieved a signal from beyond! Merchant: Not again. gut: With the pick locks skill, I can lock any door in the game! That can be helpful when dealing with cats, and other bothersome monsters. 4,000 gold. Merchant: You have to buy thieves picks before you can even use the skill, so it actually COSTS you money. 3,000 gold pieces. gut: Only assasins have to buy them, thieves start with them. 3,500 gold. Merchant: Fair enough, it's a deal. <Pick pockets> gut: Potentially wonderful. 50,000 gold. Merchant: Takes a lot of work, that you know you won't put in. I think more like 10 gold pieces. gut: It can get RoDS and AoLS! Merchant: If you use it until the bones poke through your skin, yes. You know there are other, more fun things to do in the game. Besides, you can get the skill for free! I'm offering 10 free gold pieces here. gut: True. You got a deal. <Smithing> gut: Another one that takes dull, boring work. I'm not even going to pretend I use this skill. You can buy it in the game for about 5,000 gold, so how about that. Merchant: That's too much, you don't start with the items to use it, unless you are a weaponsmith. 1,000 gold. gut: It's not one of those skills that you need the material to increase it. You should be able to get in a few increases to the skill, on your way to dwarftown. That should be worth something, like say, 2,000 gold? Merchant: Fair enough. <Stealth> gut: This skill can get me some extra SoCR. Merchant: Do you get them? Do you need them? gut: Honestly, no. It should be worth something though, in case I do need them, or decide to go for an ultra. Merchant: What does Yergius sell it for, 3,500 gold I think. gut: Sounds fair enough. <Survival> gut: Make me an offer. Merchant: No. gut: Come on. Merchant: No. gut: 1 gold piece? Merchant: No. gut: Free? Merchant: ... Let me think... Well, all right, but don't tell anybody. <Swimming> gut: Handy. 3,000 gold. Merchant: Yes, but that's all, and you can acquire it in the game with little trouble. 500 gold. gut: Hey, a thought just oc- Merchant: Oh no you don't! I'll just buy it for 3,000, and be done with it. <Tactics> gut: Can't start with this skill either, but if I could, I wouldn't sell it for less than 70,000 gold. Merchant: That's too high, it takes a long time to train. Mostly it would be of small benefit in the early game. 5,000 gold. gut: Think of all the time I would have to train it though. It would be providing many points of extra damage and accuracy, in no time, as I fight mainly in 'very aggressive' mode. 50,000 gold. Merchant: The skill is available in-game, and it's free. You just have to be champion of the arena, which you have to do anyway. 10,000 gold. gut: True enough, but it's not available for the EARLY game. I will come down to 30,000, but no lower. The tactics skill is just too good to give up, for less than that. Merchant: Agreed. <Two weapon combat> gut: I would gladly sell this for 1,000 gold. Merchant: I'll bet you would, but I'm not buying. 1 gold. gut: Needle and Sting. 500 gold. Merchant: That means no shield, but I can see 500 gold. It's a deal. <Ventriloquism> gut: This skill allows me to steal from merchants, without even having to worry about being cursed or doomed. Merchant: ! gut: Oh, but not from you of course : ) It also allows a PC to confuse even bosses, once you train it to high levels. Merchant: The merchant issue, I will pretend I didn't hear. As for confusing bosses, there are other, more reliable methods for doing that. Methods that don't require you to stand right next to the boss to use it. 20,000 gold. gut: *considers that using ventriloquism in the casino is the main use of the skill, and by then gold is a matter of convenience* Deal. <Woodcraft> gut: *snicker* Merchant: *SNICKER* gut: It can help with 'bridge building' Ah ha ha ha! Merchant: Ha ha! Oh, don't forget fletchery! Ahhh ha ah ha! gut: Ha ha ha, oh goodness! That's funny, 'fletchery', a skill that helps with fletchery! Oh, that's too much! Seriously though, let's just say 1 gold piece to be done with things. Merchant: Agreed. -------------------------------------- <Quick overview> <Alchemy> 35,000 gold <Alertness> 40,000 gold <Appraising> 5,000 gold <Archery> 20,000 gold <Athletics> 15,000 gold <Backstabbing> 300 gold <Bridge Building> 5 gold <Climbing> ? <Concentration> 35,000 gold No sell for spellcasters. <Cooking> 4,000 gold <Courage> 2,500 gold <Detect Item Status> 15,000 gold <Detect Traps> 7,500 gold <Disarm Traps> 4,500 gold <Dodge> 15,000 gold <Find weakness> 45,000 gold <First aid> 3,000 gold <Fletchery> 7,500 gold <Food preservation> 50,000 gold <Gardening> 2,500 gold <Gemology> 20,000 gold <Haggling> 200 gold <Healing> 15,000 gold ~triple if you start with neither <Herbalism> 15,000 gold ~triple if you start with neither <Law> -all gold <Listening> 100 gold <Literacy> 20,000 gold 110,000 for spellcasters <Metallurgy> 1 gold <Mining> 500 gold <Music> 1,000 gold <Necromancy> 35,000 gold <Pick locks> 3,500 gold <Pick pockets> 10 gold <Smithing> 2,000 gold <Stealth> 3,500 gold <Survival> 0 gold <Swimming> 3,000 gold <Tactics> 30,000 gold <Two weapon combat> 500 gold <Ventriloquism> 20,000 gold <Woodcraft> 1 gold Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/15/2008 at 20:25 (GMT -5) by gut] |
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 Maul Registered user [banned user] Last page view: 4922 days, 20 hours, 8 minutes and 7 seconds ago. |
My thoughts: I wouldn't sell any skill, including Woodcraft and the like, for any amount of gold with a Casino handy. Maybe we should revise the whole thing with things you can't just gain for free, i.e. PoGA, SoCR, eternium plate/dragon scale mails and the like for expensive skills, and for example, potions of cure poison, blindness, scrolls of uncursing/identify for less valuable skills. Should be entertaining tho :) EDIT: Read it. So if you had ALL the skills in the game minus Law, you'd sell them all for 200-300k-ish gold. Well, I know this is just humor but this still gets a big Law-l. Bridge building isn't even hard to use, fletchery for archers is always useful if you don't waste your uses on sticks, and especially if you find another fletchery set (not uncommon for me... except with Archers), then if you are just a bit short Haggling might get you an item immediately and if it fails you can come back later with the Casino gold with you... I didn't really use pick locks so far, but unless thieves picks are one use, I don't see what's the problem since thieves actually start with one... I think we just discussed first aid in the other topic - it's not only for GM crits, anyways; selling Necromancy with a necromancer fails from the start, without any valid counterarguments (plus mindcrafters don't suck; the ones who play them and say they suck do - kidding), and if you could actually sell all your skills, you'd really notice their absence while playing. :) Yeah, by the way... the Gut Man challenge. Play without skills. You have to plug your ears with beewax ASAP, and keep some spare in case they melt; as soon as you fall in a pit, you die, press shift+Q; start without healing and concentration so you can't possibly benefit from their effects... it's almost possible. 1l= Y0(_) [4l\l R34[) 7l-l15, Y0(_) l\/l(_)57 83 PR377Y G00[). [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/12/2008 at 16:24 (GMT -5) by Maul] |
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Nezur Unregistered user |
First Aid works for bleeding too. :) |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4233 days, 19 hours, 42 minutes and 23 seconds ago. |
Hahaha, gut's skill guide, in the oddest and most amusing format possible... Obviously I disagree on many points, but that partly highlights our different playstyles: Alertness - I would rather have this than a precrown, making it worth more than 100k in my books. It saves a lot of equipment destruction from traps, and nigh immunity to bolt spells is pretty handy. Climbing: Well, technically you could teleport out of pits... And climbing in the wilderness isn't necessary - EG can be bypassed by other means. I guess for 10k I might consider it, since you can learn it from Yergius too (I presume... every char has it, so I don't know if TB has set a price for it with Yergius). Cooking: Useful when you get it to over 80 (not reliable before then) if you want to preserve guardian corpses. Otherwise... yeah, pretty horrible. Courage: You often die to the Archmage, and I wonder if it's because of your low value of this skill... Without it archery is almost impossible in places like the temples. Whilst being mobbed isn't ideal, it's still unavoidable in many cases. Detect Traps: Starting with the skill means actually having it at a useful level. Otherwise it's very hard to increase after learning from Yergius. Thieves especailly benefit from this with their level 6 class power (they almost always start with the skill in the 40s with a 4d5 modifier). Disarm Traps: I've never set off a door trap with this skill - works surprisingly well on them even at low skill levels. Normal traps can be avoided well enough just by detecting them. Door traps on the other hand are more easily found but less easily avoided (knock isn't an option whilst they are still most lethal). Fletchery: Logs are very easily attained, especially with an early guaranteed hatchet (archers generally need to choose that quest). Slaying arrows are rare, but darkness and thunder less so. A very long range and highly effective way of stunning and blinding enemies? Nice. And fletchery sets can be obtained through potions of exchange and raw chaos. Food Preservation: You value it that highly? I find enough corpses for resistances and stats without it. And it tends to be extremely hard to increase to the point where it makes a big difference. Gemology: Haha, ripped off big time. It easily recovers 15k gold in the normal course of gameplay, not to mention completely transforming the spellcasting abilities of some characters. Herbalism: Equal in price to Healing? Surely you must see the flaw in that logic. Herbalism stays useful throughout the game, whilst Healing soon becomes redundant. Once you find a good herb source them spenseweed outlives the use of the Healing skill by a mile and a half. And you can make a lot of money through Herbalism too, not to mention very easy precrowns. Listening: I wonder how well you could actually do without this? I mean certain things would just suddenly become annoying. Lots of level messages you'd never see, and things taking you by surprise when normally you'd have a little clue about them before. You wouldn't know when shops restocked without looking or when they recashed without checking. I wonder... can you even talk to people without this skill...? I assume technically you can't learn it from Yergius if you don't have it. Literacy: There's no way I'd sacrifice the ability to read ID and uncursing scrolls in the early game for 10k gold. 10k gold is easy to find before Dwarftown. And for spellcasters 100k isn't worth the effort it takes to get Literacy back up to high levels (which is necessary for book reading). I'd say 40k for non-spellcasters, 60k for semi-spellcasters, 200k for pure spellcasters and 300k for wizards (yes, 2 precrowns worth). Necromancy: Bleh, I'd take 10k. 2k even. I really have no care for this, even as a Necromancer. Pick locks: Thieves start with picks, there's a guaranteed set in the pyramid, and yeah you can spare some money to buy them from Yergy. Why? Because you can lock any door with them. Being one key short of the set is annoying when trying to escape from a monster. Keys can also turn to dust when locking doors - picks don't. And can be handy for opening the odd door early on (though you have to be careful of traps too). Pick pockets: Yeah, okay, you don't use it, and you can get it from Yergius (and without the worry of other skills that it's hard to increase). But if it weren't so readily available I imagine gnomes would be even more loved for this potentially awesome skill - pickpocketing the odd bracers of war or preserver makes up for all the effort. There's always the hope you see, that little hope... And on top of that as much holy water, ID and uncursing as you'll ever need, not to mention other useful items like blankets and the odd stack of slaying ammo. Smithing: Yeah, it's something I've only ever bothered using twice (one of those times being with my current acid spitter). But the results are, admittedly, phenomenal. 1 piece seems so little compared with at least the thought that you can get an extra 30 DV and PV from it (with a bit of boring effort). And for any skill, even Survival, you do have to consider an extra thing: having the skill and maxing it out means you're less likely to get a disappointing result from a scroll of education. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 4891 days, 21 hours, 59 minutes and 19 seconds ago. |
Good thoughts all. I won't edit the original for a bit though. That will let me take into account (hopefully) even more opinions, all at once. Maul: > I wouldn't sell any skill, including Woodcraft and the like, for > any amount of gold with a Casino handy. I refer you to the brief introduction: "What if there was a merchant on the road to the Drakalor chain, that couldbuy your skills." That means starting gold, not post-ToEF's gold. Those are two VERY different things. Maul: > So if you had ALL the skills in the game minus Law, you'd sell > them all for 200-300k-ish gold. I refer you to the brief introduction: "I will not consider the value of any skill, in combination with other skills. That would make things really complicated." That means no 'stacking' of sold skills would be taken into account. Each skill price is evaluated only on an individual basis. Maul: > Bridge building isn't even hard to use Niether is pickpocketing, but I still never use it. Maul: > fletchery for archers is always useful if you don't waste It's always a waste, until the skill is at 100. By then, there are other ways of getting ammo. Maul: > Haggling might get you an item immediately I really would love to agree with you on this one, but I just can't. I have tried and tried and tried, haggling just always turns out bad. If you have different experiences, I'm amazed. I would not advise any player to use haggling in any circumstance. Maul: > I think we just discussed first aid in the other topic We discussed it all right, but I still don't think it's useful. In the early game, it has a small chance to be useful. In the late game there are more effective alternatives. The only way I put skill increases into first aid, is if I have to choose between it, and haggling. Maul: > Necromancy with a necromancer fails from the start If you are saying that necromancers are not capable of surviving the early game, without slaves, that's just wrong. They are almost as powerful in the magic department as wizards, really only lacking the class powers. Maul: > plus mindcrafters don't suck; the ones who play them and say > they suck do - kidding Yes, that was thrown in as a joke, I thought everyone would see it for that. That's a good point though, about mindcrafters. I think it does require more skill to play them, than all other magic users. Nezur: > First Aid works for bleeding too. :) I will edit the above post, to take that into account. That is (to my eyes) the best use of the skill. C'mon, register. You know you want to : ) Darren: > Alertness - I would rather have this than a precrown, Indeed, my playing style did dictate the value I placed on all the skills, and especially this one. I did TRY to take into account other playstyles, but failed miserably. You see, my favorite PC's seem to never have this skill, so I got used to doing without it long ago. Don't you think that potions/wands/spells render it less useful than huge early game piety. Dozens of prayers, automatic doom removal, those wouldn't tempt you? Darren: > Climbing: Yes, if one could learn it from Yergius, I would sell it too. I just don't know if that's possible. I might include a 'if I could' value. Darren: > Cooking: I almost always ignore this skill, so I didn't know the fine details of it. My memories were, that only hurthling start out with cooking sets. I think I remember that healers and farmers get the skill, but they don't start with cooking sets. Actually, I don't play farmers, so I'm not to sure about them, but I definitely don't recall any of my healers starting with a cooking set. This is also one of those skills that requires you to be carrying the set, in order to train the skill. Very annoying. Darren: > You often die to the Archmage, Indeed I do! Actually, when I'm not facing him with a rediculously anemic PC, I fair pretty well against him. I just fight him outside of the main temple, so it's one on one. That's why I have so little respect for the courage skill. You have to be surrounded for it to work, but being surrounded is something to be avoided. It's kind of like the two weapon combat skill. You have to give up a shield to use it, but you should definitely not give up a shield. Darren: > Detect Traps: I am aware that I am the only player in the history of all ADOM, that cares nothing for this skill. I can clearly see the value in it, but I just don't benefit from it any more. I have gotten so used to doing without it, all of the item saving tricks are just second nature to me. When item destruction does occur, I just cuss the RNG and go on. Still, since I am a lonely voice in hating on this skill, I will give it more value. Darren: > Disarm Traps: Yeah, I just threw the 'blow your head off' thing in as a joke. I was having to remember way back to the last time I tried to use it. I think on water traps in the gremlin cave. I mainly got soaked, so I assumed it was the same for the other traps as well. Again, I have just learned to play without it. I will probably give it some more value in the end. Darren: > Fletchery: I am surprised people are showing any love for this skill. I actually have experience with this skill, and the guidebook is right about advising you to wait until it's at 100 before using it. If you don't, your just wasting the set. How long does it take to get this to 100? Forever, unless you are neglecting REAL skills, in order to increase it. By the time it's at 100, your ammo problems should be long solved. It just seems (to me) like it comes into effect too late, to be of any use. I will add value though, if more people think it's warranted. Darren: > Food Preservation: I've learned to do without it, and if given a wish for a skill, I would prefer others to it. However, if one STARTS with this skill, it can increase stats big-time, with no boredom on the part of the player. Gaining EARLY resistances, is far better than just gaining resistances. I'm talking life and death differences, but maybe that has something to do with my lack of respect for the trap related skills : ) Food preservation increase modifiers are entirely dependant on your class choice. Necros increase it by 1, bards by 4d5. Go figure. Darren: > Gemology: Haha, ripped off big time. It easily recovers 15k > gold in the normal course of gameplay, In normal gameplay yes, you will eventually find 15k worth of gold, but not in STARTING gold. There is a big difference in getting that gold for the black market, as opposed to way after dwarftown. I don't usually come across many gems, unless I pursue them. Maybe I'm just unlucky. I suppose I really evaluated all the skills, based on a 'no scumming' platform, without realizing it. Perhaps I should mention that in the introduction. Darren: > Herbalism: Equal in price to Healing? Surely you must see the flaw Indeed, there are scumming opportunities offered by the herbalism skill, that healing can't compete with. Unless you consider the unlimited PoUH from Jharod, which I don't. I really just don't put value on features of a skill that are boring to me. If I won't use it, then it may as well not be there. I have a zero percent chance of ever being patient enough to precrown with herbs. As for the spenseweed, I have tried using that as a substitute for healing before. Firstly, it takes a horde, which I don't like to gather, and secondly, it made me REALLY appreciate the value of passive skills in general. Darren: > Listening: I wonder how well you could actually do without this? I have no idea. I just threw that in as a joke. There was no real way to evaluate this skill properly, because you can't chat with anyone in the whole game without it. That means no Terinyo quests, no dwarf quests, no peaceful passage of the EG, no cat ring, no ultra possibility, no Lawenilothehl quest, no unicorn quest, no SoCR's from Khelly or the Mad Minstrel, and lest we forget... those dangerous exploding frogs, if you drink from a pool : ) Darren: > Literacy: I'm surprised you rank this skill so highly. Literacy is something that every barbarian has to do without by default. I haven't ever found it to be anything more than a mild irritation. You really wouldn't trade your wizards literacy skill for 275,000 gold? You can get your St to 18 with something like 1,500 gold! You can pick up PV points all over the place for 50,000 gold! You can buy dozens of divine HP's refills for 70,000 gold! That's like dozens of blessed potions of miraculous healing. You can get an endless supply of life saving keys for about 20,000 gold. You can buy offensive wands from a store, and an endless supply of booze to recharge them for 50,000 gold! AND STILL HAVE OVER 80,000 GOLD LEFT OVER. The only trade off, would be to play your wizard like you normally would a mindcrafter. Just rely on melee and missiles in the early game, and develope your magic later. Darren: > Necromancy: Bleh, I'd take 10k. 2k even. Tempted to agree, but early game slaves can be helpful, and late game slaves can be a lot of fun. A gnome that visits the BUGWIL early, can easily reach exp. level 15, without breaking a sweat. However, he will still be weak against groups, and monsters that can shrug off or resist his bolts. If he creates a couple of hobgoblin (or whatever) slaves, on his way to a dungeon, they will 'adjust in power'. These slaves will be enormously powerful, in comparison to the necros own power, and should plow through almost anything they meet. Darren: > Pick locks: Thieves start with picks, Well, for thieves it would be worth more, but that's just for thieves. By the time other PC's get to the Pyramid, or scrounge up that much extra gold (they would probably prefer to spend most of their gold on piety), they should have other means of dealing with doors. Wands of knocking, the knock spell, the seal of the spheres spell, keys, and just kicking. Also, by that time, there are few monsters that pose a danger to you, that would be stopped by a locked door. I suppose I could add a bit of value though, locking doors can sometimes be handy. Darren: > Smithing: I can't argue with the phenominal aspect of it. The results are truly amazing, if you want to put the work in. However, if I had to choose between extended smithing, or piety abuse, I would probably choose piety abuse. Come to think about it, if I had to choose between extended smithing, or chewing my own hand off at the wrist, I would probably chew my own hand off at the wrist. That's just how much smithing bores me. It does deserve more value though for sure. Darren: > having the skill and maxing it out means you're less likely > to get a disappointing result from a scroll of education. I thought about that, but realized that I never take that into account in my games. If I get lucky with a scroll/potion of education, I cheer, if not I just cuss the RNG and go on. I stopped really caring about optimizing stuff, when I realized how little difference it was making to my win percentage. Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4062 days, 20 hours, 24 minutes and 33 seconds ago. |
Archers get to 100 in Fletchery extremely early, like in level 6 or something, which is exactly when they get their hatchet. Say what you will, using up a fletchery set is LOADS less risky and time-consuming than farming barbarians. Archers are the only ones besides farmers and some bards (for which your points apply) who get it anyway, so you should consider that. EDIT: Also, it's easy to get arrows, but I dare you to name me an efficient source of quarrels in the early game that is not fletchery or a tension room of ratling archers. EDIT2: Oh, and about Swimming. I'd never give this up for only 1000 gold if I start with it. Carrot juice can be freaking rare, and I live and die by this skill in my initial UD dives. It would take 10,000 gold at least to convince me to stop throwing my character's lives away in the UD. EDIT3: Gardening: Was it a joke that you mentioned farmers? For them, the skill is actually equal to an unlimited supply of spenseweed + morgia or whatever is next to spenseweed right from the start, if you do know the method. If I were playing a serious farmer, as in want to win the game serious (Haven't bothered with farmers for ages), I wouldn't want to give up this tremendous advantage for anything less than 40,000 gold. Screw it, not even that much piety gets me as much as early endless heaps of spenseweed. I know, I also feel mighty weird for actually defending this skill... EDIT: STARTING with Smithing is worthless. Okay, it may not be for weaponsmiths, who start out with the tools, but for all others you simply don't get them in 999 out of 1000 cases until you reach Dwarftown and get the skill anyway. So even if you wanted Smithing, you would happily sell it. Even 3000 gold in the early game are easily worth a 5000 gold skill in Dwarftown. Hell, 2000 might be. You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/13/2008 at 04:35 (GMT -5) by Silfir] |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4233 days, 19 hours, 42 minutes and 23 seconds ago. |
gut: >(Alertness) Don't you think that potions/wands/spells render it less >useful than huge early game piety. Dozens of prayers, automatic >doom removal, those wouldn't tempt you? What if it saves me from an initial stone block trap or viper pit? Hell, even the number of blindness traps it stops you suffering from is handy. And I tend not to use the little disabling tricks on bosses, so the ability to dodge energy rays with extreme ease is rather nice. Also reduces equipment destruction from fighting dragons. It could save my SLBs and SoCRs some day (not that I carry many of those at once, but still). Also, it's very rare that I use prayer for healing in my games. The only use I have for early game piety is eating the Oracle, and usually by then sales from UD finds are enough to cover it. gut: > (Cooking) I think I remember that healers and farmers >get the skill, but they don't start with cooking sets. Healers have Cooking? I guess that shows how much attention I pay to this particular skill... Farmers do start with a set. Like I said, it's not a big use, but it has some minor applications once trained up. gut: > (Disarm Traps) Yeah, I just threw the 'blow your head off' thing in as a joke. Heh, it ain't a joke - try using this skill below 80 on regular floor traps and you will get burned (or soaked, or whatever). Just pointing out that on door traps it is effective even at low levels, which can be handy when going through the UD. gut: >(Fletchery) I am surprised people are showing any love for this skill. I >actually have experience with this skill, and the guidebook >is right about advising you to wait until it's at 100 before >using it. If you don't, your just wasting the set. Your experiences are different from mine then obviously. I've used this skill reasonably successfully in the mid-60s. Plus using just a couple of charges on a pair of logs early on will get the skill training naturally for a while. And like I said, there's other methods of obtaining fletchery sets. Silfir's point about quarrels is very important too, especially for gnomes. Maybe it's just me but I always seem to find more slaying quarrels than slaying arrows, but can never train crossbows as effectively because of a lack of ammo. Crossbows are also superior to bows because they get destroyed less often, and Far Slayer is a possible random artifact (only elves and archers can get Sun's Messenger). gut: >Food preservation increase modifiers are entirely dependant on >your class choice. Necros increase it by 1, bards by 4d5. Are there classes other than bards and farmers that have better than 1d3? Your point about life-saving resistances only applies to poison in my books, and that's plentiful. Blink dogs can be frustrating, but hell, early game food preservation does not help to any great effect! Even late game with max preservation it still doesn't increase the corpse count much. Trolls need it at the start I guess to live (though 500 gold would suffice), but otherwise I really don't find it anywhere near as useful or successful as you're saying. gut: >(Herbalism) I really just don't >put value on features of a skill that are boring to me. Even if you don't scum it extensively, you still pick enough herbs to get Wi and To to 25. What value do you put on around +10 to each stat (+20 To for GE wizards sometimes). gut: >(Literacy) The only trade off, would be to play your wizard like you >normally would a mindcrafter. You mean die horribly and repeatedly? Wizards are fun to play for their spells - even for all those rewards you mentioned I wouldn't trade that. Especially since wizards gain marks so poorly and start so bloody weak - prayers can't save you from instakills from monsters you'd normally blast away. Getting to dwarftown would be a horrendous struggle. As for other classes, I've never seriously played a char without Literacy - I wouldn't enjoy it. Silfir: >Gardening: Was it a joke that you mentioned farmers? For them, >the skill is actually equal to an unlimited supply of spenseweed >+ morgia or whatever is next to spenseweed right from the start, if >you do know the method. Have you ever tried this? Because I have and it failed miserably. I think it's a myth propogated by people that don't play farmers (which is, well, everyone). My farmer tried planting 2 herb seeds and both were wasted with Gardening over 70. I saved the rest of my seeds till I had the skill maxed, by which time I'd found no less than 6 herb levels. I ended up using it to supplement existing patterns - moving squares up or down, making squares into r-pentominos or making wholly new squares. Easier to use than holy water for this of course, but only really helpful when you want to do extensive herb scumming. Silfir: >STARTING with Smithing is worthless. Very good point actually - it's worth nothing at the start. No forge, no anvil, no pick axe (and even if you had a pick axe it would break). For some races it might be nice to start with it so you don't have to pay Glod extortionate fees, but that's even presuming you actually want to smith. For many chars 100 gold for some spare rations would be a nice trade. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4062 days, 20 hours, 24 minutes and 33 seconds ago. |
I HAVE tried this. I have a grey elven farmer save game on my laptop at this very moment, right next to a square of spenseweed and the other stuff, on VD:1. I hate farmers, so I haven't bothered to continue playing. You need a couple of levels - level 6 should do it, though with many farmers it's easier said than done even on VD:1 - and Gardening should be at 80 or more. Easy to do if you sink all the skill increases you can into it - you still get some others you can spend on more useful skills you haven't yet sold. ;) Can't remember right now whether it is a [+] skill, but every bit of skill score helps. And of course there is some risk involved - you have to succeed in planting three herbs, and you can get failures unless the skill is maxed. Farmers oftentimes have more than three herbs, though. I was able to perform my trick even without knowing that the herb layout is always the same. Excessive testing is probably a good idea if one wants to give a decent estimate of a farmer's chances to pull off this trick. If one were to write a farmer guide, that would probably be a requirement. You can be assured that if I even had plans to write another guide, it sure as hell won't be one on farmers... You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/13/2008 at 07:35 (GMT -5) by Silfir] |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4233 days, 19 hours, 42 minutes and 23 seconds ago. |
Guide to farmers: Bugger off and play a decent class. I could maybe write one after finishing with my current drakeling and completing the bard guide so I have time for more testing with farmers. But it would be brief, with fairly standard advice for most areas. I would include a very detailed herb guide though. I would of course test out the herb-planting a bit more if I were to do so. But what's pressing to me is that there is an element of risk involved, and with herb seeds so rare you're best not using them until you're guaranteed success. Besides, I think farmers might find more herbs in general, going by my guy's luck. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/13/2008 at 07:50 (GMT -5) by Darren Grey] |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4062 days, 20 hours, 24 minutes and 33 seconds ago. |
The point is using your starting herbs to get yourself a *tremendous* advantage. Blessed spenseweed in enormous stacks equals immortality in the early game. (Hell, even uncursed spenseweed is helpful.) What is more risky: Using your herbs early to try and get yourself an immortal farmer, or playing a farmer, with some herb seeds in his pack he can maybe later use to fill up already existing herb squares, making them them a minor convenience feature? Farmers need all the help they can get as early as possible. Screw the risk - you haven't lost much if you don't manage to get your herb patch going. You don't need the herb seeds anymore if you've found a herb level. You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
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Maul Registered user [banned user] Last page view: 4922 days, 20 hours, 8 minutes and 7 seconds ago. |
As for the necromancer comment. You wouldn't care if you didn't have necromancy with one early on? Then why do you play the necromancer? For the frost bolt or, god forbid, a tract of chaos? Elementalists get frost bolts anyway. I play necromancers for necromancy. "Guide to farmers: Bugger off and play a decent class." Ha ha ha. "But it would be brief, with fairly standard advice for most areas." I think harder classes need long-winded guides, actually. Who can't figure out how to play a barbarian, given Guidebook access and a bit of brains? It's not them, it's the little guys who need to be explained. "Well, for thieves it would be worth more, but that's just for thieves. By the time other PC's get to the Pyramid, or scrounge up that much extra gold (they would probably prefer to spend most of their gold on piety), they should have other means of dealing with doors. Wands of knocking, the knock spell, the seal of the spheres spell, keys, and just kicking. Also, by that time, there are few monsters that pose a danger to you, that would be stopped by a locked door. I suppose I could add a bit of value though, locking doors can sometimes be handy." Which class, other than thieves, do actually start with the skill? Anyways, by saying that you can just kick down the door - irrelevant, you mentioned yourself that you can avoid item destruction with it. Also - you can avoid the cat lord with locked doors. 1l= Y0(_) [4l\l R34[) 7l-l15, Y0(_) l\/l(_)57 83 PR377Y G00[). |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4233 days, 19 hours, 42 minutes and 23 seconds ago. |
Farmer guide wouldn't need to be long-winded. They start with archery, so it's only the begining game where they need to be careful - later on they can shoot through anything. Food Preservation and herbs also let them get their stats high pretty quickly. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Nezur Registered user Overlord of Jak-Aragth Last page view: 5808 days, 18 hours, 5 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
>Farmer guide wouldn't need to be long-winded. >They start with archery, so it's only the >begining game where they need to be careful - >later on they can shoot through anything. Food >Preservation and herbs also let them get their >stats high pretty quickly. The effects of the Archery skill are weaker for characters that are not Archers. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/13/2008 at 10:41 (GMT -5) by Nezur] |
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 4891 days, 21 hours, 59 minutes and 19 seconds ago. |
Silfir: > Archers get to 100 in Fletchery extremely early, like > in level 6 or Surely my memories can't be that bad, can they? If fletchery really gets to 100 at level 6, I would indeed give it more value, but my memories say no. Silfir: > EDIT3: Gardening: Was it a joke that you mentioned farmers? It was a joke, mentioning farmers. The joke being farmers. I have little desire to play a farmer. Even if they started the game with unlimited herbs already in their pack, I still might not play them. Silfir: > For them, the skill is actually equal to an unlimited supply Not actually equal to, POTENTIALLY equal to. Definitely not the same thing. Putting that much work into scumming for herbs is too big of a headache. I want to get on with the game in my games. Darren: > (Alertness) What if it saves me from an initial stone block > trap or viper pit? It would only do that early, and the alertness skill is usually at low levels in the early game, so it wouldn't help a lot. If it did make the difference in setting off an early stone block trap, then you made the right decision to keep it. Most of the PC's I play though, do not have this skill, and it's very rare for me to die from stone blocks and pit vipers. It's quite annoying when it does happen though, so it does tend to stick in one's mind. I'd still rather have the gold. Darren: > Also, it's very rare that I use prayer for healing in my games Ditto. In fact I would rather 'Q', but technically, it is an option. Darren: > (Fletchery) I've used this skill reasonably successfully in > the mid-60s Goodness. Well, appearantly I just plain under valued this skill. I will add value. Darren: > Food preservation Are there classes other than bards and > farmers that have better than 1d3? Oh yes, I remember a few classes off the top of my head, and there may be others. Rangers in particular, have great skill modifiers in general, and (I think always) start with a food preservation modifier of 4d5, regardless of race. Also, beastfighters have excellent modifiers in general, but the class doesn't start with the skill. You have to get the skill from a race, but the modifier will always be respectable. > early game food preservation does not help to any great effect! I just have to disagree. My favorite PC's don't have this skill, and so I know how the game plays out without it. I have spent *REDICULOUSLY* (I have no way to emphasize this word enough) long periods of time, trying to get a single blasted blink dog corpse. I occasionally do play a beastfighter or ranger though, and the difference is mind boggling. There are dog corpses in all directions. It's not just for BD's though, there are other rare corpses that I just write off with my gray elf wizard. Giant slugs, lightning lizzards, and so on just don't come along that often, and when they do, it's nice to actually get a corpse from your first kill. Dark sage corpses fall into that catagory, with a troll beastfighter, it would be rare to have to rely on the artifact potion for literacy. Darren: > (Herbalism) Even if you don't scum it extensively, you still > pick enough herbs to get Wi and To to 25 The thing is though, that you can do that without the skill. I know it's even duller that way (UGH!), but it can be done. On the other hand, you are not guaranteed of getting to those herbs in the first place, and healing helps a lot there. Also, there is always the fact, that as long as you start with one of these skills, the other is readily available. I think that had more to do with their values than their potentials, it's just really easy to get them. If a PC has to choose between one or the other, healing is what I would choose 9 times out of ten. Trolls and candle-borns being the exception. Darren: > (Literacy) Especially since wizards gain marks so poorly Not missile marks, you can even get those on coward tactics. Is it that hard to use rocks until dwarftown? Maul: > Then why do you play the necromancer? Find weakness, off the top of my head. Mind bogglingly cool class power of 'death can't touch me' at exp. level 50 : ) Role playing evilness, and so on : ) Maul: > (Pick locks) Which class, other than thieves, do actually start with the skill? Assasins. I thought merchants did too, but I was dreaming again. Maul: > saying that you can just kick down the door - irrelevant, > you mentioned yourself that you can avoid item destruction Actually, I mentioned that I have played with the 'just kick the door down' playstyle for so long, that item destruction is not an issue for me any longer. Mostly is doesn't happen, because I know the tricks, and when it does happen, I just move on. Maul: > Also - you can avoid the cat lord with locked doors. Could you please give me a reason why I would WANT to avoid the guy, who gives me my favorite artifact in the game? If you mean that it's better to avoid the Cat Lord than to kill him, might I point out that he is a very exp. point rich kill. He's not that tough, if you use the right battle tactics. Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! |
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Maul Registered user [banned user] Last page view: 4922 days, 20 hours, 8 minutes and 7 seconds ago. |
From below to above... You can avoid the (angry) cat lord with locked doors by locking the cats. Not literally. :) Item destruction is not an issue for you... good for you. I haven't won the game a thousand times yet and as such I prefer to be careful. Well, I can't argue with sheer experience. Assassins... alright, that's two. They don't get thieves picks? Find weakness - any dark elf gets that. 1l= Y0(_) [4l\l R34[) 7l-l15, Y0(_) l\/l(_)57 83 PR377Y G00[). |
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 4891 days, 21 hours, 59 minutes and 19 seconds ago. |
You don't need to lock a door to keep a cat behind it. They have no hands! If another monster opens the door for them, just shut them back up. > Assassins... alright, that's two. They > don't get thieves picks? I don't think so. If they do, I have always just tossed them out without notice. > Find weakness - any dark elf gets that. Any dark elf also gets a pathetic Le stat. Any dark elf also gets jipped by Waldenbrook, on every item they buy from and sell to him. These are big points to consider for a spellcaster. Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! |
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Nezur Registered user Overlord of Jak-Aragth Last page view: 5808 days, 18 hours, 5 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
gut: >>Then why do you play the necromancer? >Find weakness, off the top of my head. >Mind bogglingly cool class power >of 'death can't touch me' at >exp. level 50 : ) Role playing >evilness, and so on : ) Hehe :) Once a certain requirement is met at level 50 the necromancer becomes immortal. :) |
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Maul Registered user [banned user] Last page view: 4922 days, 20 hours, 8 minutes and 7 seconds ago. |
Gut - From below to above... You can avoid the (angry) cat lord with locked doors by locking the cats. Not literally. :) Item destruction is not an issue for you... good for you. I haven't won the game a thousand times yet and as such I prefer to be careful. Well, I can't argue with sheer experience. Assassins... alright, that's two. They don't get thieves picks? Find weakness - any dark elf gets that. Nezur - Obviously. This, however, needs two requirements: -Get to level 50. That's the hardest part IMO, since I haven't managed to win yet, but with a level 50 character I probably would, since I do know something about playing ADOM. -Not quit in frustration after dying the sixth time with 10 toughness. 1l= Y0(_) [4l\l R34[) 7l-l15, Y0(_) l\/l(_)57 83 PR377Y G00[). |
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FantomFang Registered user Last page view: 5793 days, 6 hours, 12 minutes and 38 seconds ago. |
haven't read all of the replies yet, but Food Preservation definitely does have a modifier above 1d3 for at least Rangers in addition to the aforementioned (Farmer/Bard me thinks), since i have started several GE Rangers in a row with Le ranging from 13 to 16 who all started with 30-40 +4d4/+4d5 in the skill. EDIT: Read all of it and saw that Rangers were mentioned. damn. oh well, i'll leave this up here anyways. EDIT 2: 2 more things. Firstly, awesome thread, the skill analyses and discussions now are very helpful, and are an enjoyable read. Secondly, despite a bit of a lack of experience, i was thinking about maybe trying to write a ranger guide, since they are one of my favorite archetypes and a class that i am determined to try and win the game with. I was wondering if I worked on setting it up, formatting it, putting in all of the info i could from my accumulated experience, if any one here would be willing to help me fill in the holes that it will have. I'm getting a laptop on friday for my graduation, and with 6 more days of school after that with nothing to do, i should have plenty of time to work on it. Going for 2nd win [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/13/2008 at 17:14 (GMT -5) by FantomFang] |
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 4891 days, 21 hours, 59 minutes and 19 seconds ago. |
> if any one here would be willing to help me > fill in the holes As soon as you post it, it's a fair bet we will all help fill in the holes : ) Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! |
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FantomFang Registered user Last page view: 5793 days, 6 hours, 12 minutes and 38 seconds ago. |
Cool =) I'll see about working on putting one together then! Going for 2nd win |
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FantomFang Registered user Last page view: 5793 days, 6 hours, 12 minutes and 38 seconds ago. |
Hey, do you think I should post this as I work on it, or hold off until i have the majority of it done? Started working on it tonight, so far so good. EDIT: Hey, I'm using Open Office to write it in, but should i maybe do it in Notepad or Wordpad? Is there a thing like that will allow me to keep my formatting? Any thing else i should thing about along those lines? |
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 4891 days, 21 hours, 59 minutes and 19 seconds ago. |
I think that is mostly personal preference. You couldn't do a worse job of formating than I do, even if you tried! The only trick I know, to preserve formating, is the PRE tags. Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! |
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zv Registered user Last page view: 5654 days, 19 hours, 57 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Uh, Cooking so low? With hurthlings, I wouldn't sell it for less than 100k. It's nigh-impossible to NOT get a precrown with early Cooking w/set during normal course of the game. With a bit of work, it's possible to get 4 without grinding your whole finger bones into the keyboard, unlike, say, any other method. For other Cooking starters, you get 5 !oCCs out of it later. I value my corruption removal highly, so, well, 100k gold seems a fair price then. |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4233 days, 19 hours, 42 minutes and 23 seconds ago. |
I wrote my guide in Word and then just copy-pasted into here, inserting in the bold, italic and underline tags where necessary (took a while, but wasn't hard). The PRE tag is if you want everything mono-spaced in Courier for maps and such. zv: The 5 orb guardians can be cooked with fire, and personally I find there's plenty of corruption removal to go round. Hurthlings have trouble carrying all those corpses around for precrowns too, though admittedly it does make a lawful precrown a little smoother since you can use the corpses of summons and livesac the rest. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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FantomFang Registered user Last page view: 5793 days, 6 hours, 12 minutes and 38 seconds ago. |
What are the bold, italic, and underline tags, btw? So that I can put them in my guide as I go. Going for 2nd win |
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 4891 days, 21 hours, 59 minutes and 19 seconds ago. |
They are all listed in the 'read the formating help' option, just below this post. Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! |
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FantomFang Registered user Last page view: 5793 days, 6 hours, 12 minutes and 38 seconds ago. |
id just like to say one thing...that i'm retarded. thanks gut. Going for 2nd win |
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Molach Registered user Lord of DurisMud Last page view: 5136 days, 1 hour, 36 minutes and 46 seconds ago. |
Just wrote in here to say that I enjoyed reading this thread. Very funny written, that dialogue with "gut" and the merchant there. Starting from the bottom: Guardian corpses can be cooked by fire - yes. So I just want to remind all players, even those without any fire-wands to spare in the ToEF...the ACW will be cooked if you just let the corpse lie on the floor. I would stand over it, ready to pick it up, because it can burn away anytime after it is cooked. I always let it cook on the ground. Cooking and precrowns: Just play a L hurthling (that is, stay L and use a L altar). Being able to sac even summoned animals' corpses with bonus makes it very fast. About the values: My gut feeling is that gut is playing very fast, dealing with situations on-the-go and holding a record in speed-finishing the game. So naturally his values of the time-consuming scummy skills is far less than for the ones that makes him play faster. For example, I (who usually play carefully and developingly and optimalizingly) have very little use for appraising skill, would sell it for less than 5,000 gold. Dodge for 10,000? It offers a totally unique form of betterment...so I would not sell it for less than 100,000. Because it would make my walking tank a little bit better (never mind that I probably don't need it) Still, about the skills: I would rate athletics higher. It offers benefit from the start (increased chance of +stats on levelup) and to the endgame - better speed - when less exp is not an issue. Unique advantage. Survival - 0 gold? At least take the cost of a couple large rations, which you don't have to buy when travelling to the CoC early game... In general - all skills add to score at the end of the game, so that's another reason they shouldn't be sold. However, selling useless skills means that a potion of training has a greater chance to improve some useful skill, so that is so as well. And finally, the argument about using gold for early precrown requires an altar - which might be hard to find. Also, the contents in the BM can be extremely shitty, and you might be hard pressed to spend more than a few thousand anyway. |
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 4891 days, 21 hours, 59 minutes and 19 seconds ago. |
I didn't realize it, but I was also taking into account the 50% BM advnatage for killing Yergius. I don't think most players would do that at all, so all my numbers are screwed up to a certain extent. Thanks for all the comments. I will probably update the original later today. Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! |
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