Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / The human mind
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Stone Giant Registered user the Traveler Last page view: 8295 days, 9 hours, 40 minutes and 10 seconds ago. |
I have a habit of thinking about the workings and secrets of the human mind. I believe that every part of our mind can, if recognised, be developed by exercising it like a muscle within our body. If we develop our mind properly there should be no boundry of what we can achieve. Also I'm fascinated by how our minds are different to other peoples. What I can achieve with the use of my mind may be impossible for others and vice versa. I also wonder how emotions, feelings, hopes and dreams connect with our mind and how experiences effect it during our life. The human mind is incredibly complex and therefore has many mysterious to it. Does anyone else have any thoughts about this or is it just me thinking too much about stuff that isn't useful to think about? |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 30 minutes and 45 seconds ago. |
There IS a boundary... a physical object, like the brain, with a finite size, cannot hope to acheive anything infinite ("no boundaries"). The concept of a "soul" is interesting, though, as it's something nonphysical. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Stone Giant Registered user the Traveler Last page view: 8295 days, 9 hours, 40 minutes and 10 seconds ago. |
I don't actually believe that the brain and the mind are the same thing. The brain literally is a muscle of certain size that I belive to be pretty much the same in each person, until it's developed through the mind. I think the mind is something within our brain that isn't purely physical that is like a control station telling our brain what to do, it's really what makes us different from each other. I believe that the mind is like a bridge between our soul and our brain. With the soul being some kind energy, it cannot be destroyed and therefore the mind is somehow immortal too. Anyway welcome to the forum Iridia, I'm new here too. |
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Amanda Sedai Registered user Last page view: 8134 days, 1 hour, 9 minutes and 22 seconds ago. |
I agree that the soul, mind, whatever is energy and therefore can't be destroyed, which makes me wonder about the possibility of an afterlife. What happens to that energy? And if there is something after death, do we still retain our identity (memories, personality, etc) that we had in life? I don't think it seems logical, but I hope we do because I'd hate to "die" like that. I don't think the brain can be developed infinitely, but I think like anything else it opens a lot of possibilities because you can choose exactly how you want to develop it. Say you're a logic-oriented person. You might want to study math and science and use your logic skills to your advantage. On the other hand, I had an English professor who was very much a "math" person, but he chose to study English in college because he wanted to be different (he had a lot of scientists in his family), and now he's a well-rounded person. I guess you could compare it to ADOM. You can play a race and class that cause severe strengths and weaknesses (gray elven wizard is the best magic-user in the game but can't fight worth crap, trollish barbarian is the strongest but the stupidest, etc), or you can be a well-rounded, jack-of-all-trades character (trollish wizard, elven fighter, etc). You can overcome your weaknesses by focusing on and training your strengths, or you can focus on your weaknesses and train them under you're well-balanced, even knowing you'll never make them perfect. It all depends on how you want to live. -Amanda Sedai, a save-scumming newbie. (Hey, at least I saved that little girl's dog. Gimme some credit... ;-)) |
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Tha Messiah Registered user Angel of Death Last page view: 7988 days, 3 hours, 48 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
What can I add to this. Nothin much. I agree.The mind is entirley diffrent form the brain.We all have similar brains(more or less- Homer Simpson's brain dosent count).But we can achieve wonders with the power of a mind.Since humans unlike other animals use only 1/10 th their brain. THE MESSIAH,I'm here now,Worship me. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 30 minutes and 45 seconds ago. |
"I don't think [immortality] seems logical." Question: Why not? Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Amanda Sedai Registered user Last page view: 8134 days, 1 hour, 9 minutes and 22 seconds ago. |
Messiah, we use 100% of our brains. The 10% refers to the sensory and motor parts of the brain. (scientists originally didn't realize that the remaining 90% actually did stuff). Iridia, I believe we all have souls, but it's more or less obvious that the brain controls things like memory. Brain damage can cause people to lose their memories and even change their personalities. So when the physical brain dies, I think it would follow that our identity (personality, memories, everything that makes us who we are) dies with it. That's not to say that I [i]like[/i] that idea. I've spent over 18 years as myself; I don't like the idea that someday I might stop existing. So I just hope that I, as a stupid little human being, have a very narrow scope on how things work and my perception of the mind and what death would do to it is completely wrong. I seriously want to believe in an afterlife; the idea of there not being anything after death scares the crap out of me. :-( -Amanda Sedai, a save-scumming newbie. (Hey, at least I saved that little girl's dog. Gimme some credit... ;-)) |
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Palagran Registered user Furry Hybrid Last page view: 6572 days, 7 hours, 29 minutes and 16 seconds ago. |
I'd love to debate, but I don't see anything solid enough to work with here. What exactly do you want to know? Be specific. |
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Jacknife Registered user Last page view: 8347 days, 18 hours, 34 minutes and 1 second ago. |
Firstly: this is my new favorite topic...one tat actuall fosters thought. Secondly: As i view things, the brain and the mind are indeed seprate 'things', but they are dependant on each other. Thyre like the processor, and the harddrive in a computer. The Mind, which consisit solely of infintessimal sparks of energy in the brain, is able to think, reason, jude, guess, dream, etc...but it cant remeber. It can only recive information, and analyise it and create appropriate results. The physical brain is where those results are stored. It is prvoen that tiny crevasees in the brain are formed that store information weve learned. though exact patters of the creases are know known, it goes to reason that as the brain gets more and more "wrinkled", the more difficult it becomes to add new wrinkles, eacue there is less room. Though it is always possible to learn more, it becomes harder over time, which is why childre learn so quickly. Its like writing on a pice of paper. early on you write big, and leave lots of space, as you go on, you have to start scribbling in the margins, or in between lines. By that theory, the mind technically is infinite, but eventually you reach a point where learning more becomes so tremendously difficult that it is entirely impractical. Different people will reach that point at different times dependant on thier specific brain chemistry. -Peace Out, War In -Jacknife |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 30 minutes and 45 seconds ago. |
Well, here's my "immortality" theory: The scientific principle of cause-and-effect operates on everything in the universe, so it's only logical that the universe also had some sort of a cause. The scientists say, "the Big Bang", but that's not really an answer, because you can still say, "where did the Big Bang come from?" and still be tying to find where everything started. Unless the universe is cyclic and does not have a cause, there has to be some sort of "first cause" for everything. It seems to me very possible that something with intelligence caused the universe. The alternative, that it came into being by mechanism of something that didn't have the ability to think, seems kinda silly to me because the universe works out so well, with processes that form structure and not chaos, with human beings that can think about the world around them. So basically I believe in a God. If there is a God, then he is probably immortal; and if he is at all watching the universe, then he will have noticed that we also have the ability to think (or maybe he even brought us into being, directly or indirectly, in such a way that we would also have the ability to think). That makes it very possible that we have some sort of immortality. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Jacknife Registered user Last page view: 8347 days, 18 hours, 34 minutes and 1 second ago. |
Chapter 2 -- The Mind Many will argue that the mind is not a physical thing. I think it is. (this may get kind of long) Matter is made up of molecules, which are made of atoms, which are made of quarks. It has been concluded that here can be only 12 types of quarks, each with an entirely differnt composition. Quarks bind together in a pattern of 3-7-3, take 13 ping-pong balls, make 3 into a triangle, 7 into a hexagon with a 7th ball in the center, and 3 more into a second triangle..stack them into a ball, and you have a quark formation.. now, each of these outside quarks is responsible for one facet of the particles properties...one is its physical properties...that leave 12 others. the one in the center is special, but no one has figured out what it is made of. but anyways, these other quarks make things sucks as magnetism, gravitational mass, exectra exist...well, the mind uses quarks which are of a strange energy that sceince hasnt yet given a name to. this enregy, which transmitts itself through the neurons in the brain is what allows us to think. This energy IS measurable by sceince...the book "Psychic Discoveries Behind The Iron Curtain" detials hows its done (but a lot of that book is way off the wall...there are a few relevant parts). Anyways, the enrgy in the brain which is the mind IS a physical thing, it can be created and destroyed, and when it is, the brain can no longer think, and thus the person dies... -Peace Out, War In -Jacknife |
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Amanda Sedai Registered user Last page view: 8134 days, 1 hour, 9 minutes and 22 seconds ago. |
That's called the "domino theory." Some Greek philosopher (can't remember which one) came up with it. (although it was given its name centuries later). You know how some people (those who have lives even more boring than mine ;-)) like to line up dominoes, then flick the first one with their finger and watch the chain reaction? Well, this philosopher basically said that everything in the universe is a chain reaction. Everything from the formation of stars, to Earth's beginnings, to life evolving from bacteria to human beings, everything is this ongoing chain reaction... but who started it? Who knocked over the first domino? This is said to be a proof determining the existance of God (or gods, or whatever. The existance of some greater being or force). And it makes pretty good sense to me. But who's to say that that means there's an afterlife? I guess does kind of imply that everything is for a reason, though, so maybe you could say that whatever happens after death is for the best. And maybe it just goes to show that we don't know everything, that there's something beyond our comprehension and therefore we can't possibly know the answers to questions like "is there life after death?" Guess it all depends on how you look at it. But it gives me hope. Thanks for bringing it up, Iridia. -Amanda Sedai, a save-scumming newbie. (Hey, at least I saved that little girl's dog. Gimme some credit... ;-)) |
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Jacknife Registered user Last page view: 8347 days, 18 hours, 34 minutes and 1 second ago. |
Chapter 3 -- The Afterlife I don't belive it exists. Think for yourself right now...what does a blind man see? think about it.... if you closed your eyes, thats not what a blind man sees...you saw blackness, darkness...but a blind man cant see darkness, he cant see black, he doesnt know what black is...it is impossible for the mind to understand nonexistance. A conscious person cannot comprehend what it is like to be unconscious. This causes discomfort... beacuse the mind cant 'belive' that it could possibly not exist, its natural to creat some way that it will still exist, even when its host, the body is dead. way back in history, people simply thought that since the mind must still exist, it will be in a perfect place, and early images of heaven were formed. as time went on, and the brain grew more sophisticated, religion too became more complex, and soon became organized. everyone is afraid of dieying, bur religion tells us that we dont die, we just move on...we like hearing that so we believe it, after all, what else is there to believe in? but as i see it, death is it...when the physical energy ceases to flow, the mind cant think, and its over. Done. and thats that. -Peace Out, War In -Jacknife [Edited 1 time, last edit on 1/13/2002 at 23:14 (GMT -5) by Jacknife] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 30 minutes and 45 seconds ago. |
How do you know that all energy is physical? The physical energy had to come from somewhere. Just because we cannot imagine not existing does not mean that we are not immortal. (whew, triple negative!) It just means we can't tell if we are, just by checking to see if we have a concept of non-immortality or not. If everything is physical, then it seems logical to assume that we cannot be immortal. However, if you assume that there are things that are not made of matter and energy, your perspective changes, and immortality becomes a possibility. Those quarks that Jacknife mentioned--what are THEY made of? Energy, naturally. What is energy made of? We don't have a name for it, but why does it exist? All that brings me back to a Great Cause, and the possibility that death isn't the end after all. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 1 time, last edit on 1/13/2002 at 23:44 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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Jacknife Registered user Last page view: 8347 days, 18 hours, 34 minutes and 1 second ago. |
"He who wishes to share his religious views with you, rarely wishes you to share yours with him."-Ashleigh Albright Chapter 4 -- The Disclaimer First: I apologize to anyone whos beliefe i opposed in my previous posts, im not intentding to insult anyone, i simply am present sceintific infromation, with my own personal interpretation. You are free to agree or dissagree, and i welcome and comments, questions, or flames you have about it. This is a very touchy area for many people. Second: The quarks are presumably made of some form of energy, honestly i dont have an answer, and we'd be very hard pressed to find someone that does... Tetiarily: The quarks ARE known to all have a ohysical prescence HOWEVER...when i say physical, i mean detectable in some way or another, by people...though it may not have mass, nor density, it DOES have volume. Quardinty: since time is in actuallity, not perfectly linear, as proven by einstein himself, it IS possible that the universe did not in fact have a beginning, but simply enveloped out of infinity...since withou any matter present (either atoms, or pure energy) time does not pass, so it could have happened that some tiny pasrticle slowly caused time to begin, and inched alng infentecimally slow and slowyly began to grow, and expand until eventually all matter as we know it came into existence, and now, with so much matter around, time passes (as we percieve it) rather quickly. were any human being able to watch this enveloping of the universe from afar, it would appear to be a big bang, since time would be passing so slowly within the universe... even hugh amounts prgoress would seem to take only second, when in reality, if it were possible to record the passage of time, it would take eon upon eons to happen. Where that first praticle which started time ticking came from...well, i guess just luck. Possibly a god, but then, if there is a god, where di he come from, for he would also have had to have been created somehow. -Peace Out, War In -Jacknife |
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Jacknife Registered user Last page view: 8347 days, 18 hours, 34 minutes and 1 second ago. |
Chapter 5 -- How To Prove That Time Isnt Linear In Your Own Home step one, obtain two VERY sensitive clocks, the need to be accurate to the millisecond for this expiriment to be successful. step two, sync the clocks step three, place one clock in a room full of people, with music playing, preferaably with some sort of game going on, anything that causes people to think (though causes the brain to emit enrgy, and it is energy, which makes up matter, that causes time.) place the other clock in a desolate area...an attick or a garage. Eventually, it will become evident that the clock in the energy filled room will read a later time than the isolated clock, even though both clocks were set to the same exact time. SAMPLE 2 use two highly sensitive LIGHT WEIGHT clocks...sync them, etc...get a very long piece of rope, pull it taugh, and tie one clock to each end. gently vibrate one end of the rope, making sure the other end does not move. over time the clock coser to the vibrating will tick faster than the clock devoid of motion. These are both repeatable, proven expiriments, that prove that energy, be it physical energy (matter) or kinetic energy, causes time to pass. -Peace Out, War In -Jacknife |
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Redwood629 Unregistered user |
Your clock examples are completely divoid of any reason whatsoever. Just because a clock speeds up due to motion doesnt mean you are warping time or some crap, you're messin with the gears, causing the hands to skip, therefore making your examples irrelovant. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 30 minutes and 45 seconds ago. |
A God would be something intelligent, but non-physical, because everything that is physical must have a cause but no such rule restrains the non-physical (e.g. clairvoyance, in which people for no reason at all know something they could not know--e.g., a nonphysical, supernatural cause as to why they do.) Whether the big bang was fast or slow (and there's a lot of debate about it) is kind of irrelevant to metaphysics--the point is, did it or didn't it happen? and why? If you want to get into the science of it, it's a different story; you could argue cosmic strings, bubbles and extra dimensions till the end of time. But if either way--particle or intelligent God--you're assuming a cause for the universe, I think one is more likely than the other, since it's more likely that intelligence, the final result of whatever creation event you happen to espouse, should come from a greater intelligence than from pure dumb chance. Evolution too is of course extremely unlikely, as in pure dumb chance, because of the 2nd law of thermodynamics (everything tends towards disorder), which I think is pretty good evidence for our intelligence having been arranged by someone. Though why any God would try to use evolution to create intelligence when starting a universe was easy enough for him is really beyond me. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Jacknife Registered user Last page view: 8347 days, 18 hours, 34 minutes and 1 second ago. |
Thats the last time i ask my freind brian (redwood) to read one of my posts... (j/k bri). but he does make a point, if yu wer to shake a clock, it would mees up the gears...if you use a clock that has gears, that it...but u can use any intrument of time measurment you like, (with the execption of a sundial, because that doesnt actually measure time, but measures the angle at which the sun reaches the earth.) ayways, the clock expiriment DOES work, though using house hold clocks, would take far too long to notice (extremely extremely sensitive clocks, the which are based on the orbits of elcetrons around hydrogen atoms (which is always a constand speed, by the way) are they kind that are best used.) As for the probability of intelligence being created, the probability is in fact a gurantee, not a small chance...find 1D6. roll it an infinte number of times. Will youb ever roll a six? YES. Use 1D20*10^50 will you ever roll a 5829? YES. the odds are incredibly small, BUT IT WILL HAPPEN. because if you roll the die an infinite number of times, eventually, it will land on every number. The universe is for all practicle purposes infinite. If we were createdm it would be more likely that we were created at the same time the rest of the universe was created, instead, as those near-impossible chances kept happening, evetually, a 5829 was rolled, and intelligeant life developed on thes tiny backwater planet we call Earth. "It is said that 50 monkeys with typewriters ,given infinite time [and infinite lifespan], will eventually write the entire works of shakespear" -Scott Adams (actually he was quoteing someone else, but i forget who) But the statement is true, even though the odds are infintessimal, since it is possible (a 0 will never be rolled no matter how many side the die has) it will eventually happen, so long and there is no limit placed on how long there is for that to be so. -Peace Out, War In -Jacknife |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 30 minutes and 45 seconds ago. |
This is getting to be an interesting thread... Jacknife--It's obvious that with an infinite number of chances anything can happen, but where are you getting your infinities from? The universe, as I understand it scientifically, has a finite reach in both space and time, which is not enough for the chance creation of intelligence to be probable (note I didn't say "possible", because there's always a chance.) If you're talking about a "multiverse", a huge collection of universes popping in and out of existence like so many soap bubbles, you might have a point about infinite chances. Still, that probably has a finite reach in however many dimensions it possesses, not that I know enough about it to say for sure. Another argument says, since we are intelligent life, then the chance creation of intelligent life is possible, even probable. The presupposition, there, is of course that it all happened by chance--that the die wasn't weighted in some way or other. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Redwood629 Unregistered user |
Per the clock study. I retract my last post in that time is not linear.. yet it is relative. Jacknife, your experiment just changes frames of reference and really has no effect on the intangable entity known as time. This, of course, is common knowledge. As for the Dice problem, I'd rather not comment, it really doesnt mean much to me. For the mind's inability to imagine inexistance, i agree whole-heartedly and it doesnt just go for death and passiing out. Try to imagine a new color. Try to imaging what it would be like to just obeserve the universe at its earliest point, before big bang and all that. Fun, eh? |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 30 minutes and 45 seconds ago. |
What about NDE's? Anyone have a theory? Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Unregistered user |
NDE? Near-death experience? Well, your brain&body start producing chemicals similar to pain killers, causing you to hallucinate. Also when your head starts to run out of oxygen your vision narrows, which could seem like a tunnel. This is just something I remember from a document I saw on TV a couple of years ago. No offense to all y'all die-hard christians whose soul starts flying to heaven. |
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Unregistered user |
I asked that question because I read a book on NDE's once--apparently most of them aren't "die-hard" Christians (was that a pun?), just normal people (though people who buy into Eastern/new-age stuff are more prevalent than others. Maybe because they're used to odd hallucinatory chemicals in their brains...heh). Most Christians believe you die once and it's final; you can't come back. After thinking a bit, so do I; NDE's are so diverse that if you said there was an afterlife because there are NDE's, it would have to be different for every person. I guess I have to make a confession that I haven't made, since there are so many annoying stereotypes I don't want to be associated with--I'm one of those "die-hard" Christians you referred to. After a lot of thinking and questioning I came to the belief that there's a God, that He must've revealed himself somehow, and that Christianity is the only belief about Him that makes sense. You can sift through the evidence, as I did for about two years, but I didn't find the contradictions that are so prevalent in the greater part of other religions' doctrine. So I believe in Heaven and Hell and salvation, and I've yet to find a part of it that doesn't make sense, even if it's a bit unpopular in some circles. Iridia |
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Jan Erik Administrator Last page view: 9 days, 4 hours, 1 minute and 45 seconds ago. |
Personaly I don't have much fairh in ANY religion. If there realy is a God and only one religion is the right then it's pretty much just blind luck if you pick the right one, if you even get a chance to choose (most people don't)... I figure if God realy wanted us to perform scertain rituals and such he'd have have made it more clear. I figure as long as you try to be "good" things will work out ok. At least the world would be a better place, even if it turns out there is no god or afterlife (the jury's still out on that one). I don't have anything against religious people though (genuinely religious people that is, people who use religion as a tool to aquire power or force theyr views upon others are just scum), if anything I respect them for standing up for theyr beliefes. I just don't share those beliefes. P.S. Why does most people seem to be afraid to even consider not to live forever in some form? I don't have a problem with the idea of death beeng final... I just don't see what a soul can possibly do to keep itself ocupied for all eternity without going insane from boredom after a few hundred billion years. IMHO there is nothing sadder than people who risign themselves to a sad fate because they figure it doesn't realy matter because they will get it better after they "die"... Jan Erik Mydland HoF admin |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 30 minutes and 45 seconds ago. |
The "ritual" thing is a really common misconception about Christianity; it has nothing to do with rituals. People being who they are have invented rituals involved with being a Christian, but they're not what it's all about. People can go to church every Sunday, pray before eating even a Twinkie, and say as many Hail Marys as they want to and still not really be Christians. Besides that, you can have family 'way back that are Christians and not be one yourself (my mother and I are the only ones in our family). Basically, being a Christian means having an actual friendship with God. Someone who is a Christian believes that God is absolutely good, while man, by choice, has a bad nature (easy to believe after the whole World Trade Center thing). So God can't let you into Heaven if you've done even one bad thing, because He's absolute good, and the only alternative for someone who's died is Hell. But--since God is absolutely good, He figured out a solution, kind of a substitute agreement, by sending down His son Jesus, who lived as a human, then died as a substitute to take the punishment for humankind. Then he came back from the dead, which means that he has the power to bring us back too. The person who is a Christian is someone who has accepted God's offer of a substitute; and God sees that person as good because his "debt" has been paid, and that person can go to Heaven. No rituals involved. There, hope I've set the record straight. I'm not a Christian because I'm afraid that there's nothing after death; rather, I don't want to encounter a rather terrible "something"--because, if you take as a presupposition that the Bible is right, then you're going to live forever no matter what--but the choice is yours as to where. And being in heaven and getting to know the person who made me and everything I can see and touch, sounds a lot better than hell. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Stone Giant Registered user the Traveler Last page view: 8295 days, 9 hours, 40 minutes and 10 seconds ago. |
If heaven and hell exists then that's good enough for me. Going to either is better than not existing at all. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 30 minutes and 45 seconds ago. |
Um... that depends on just how bad Hell is. If you take the classical view, then it's like burning to death but never dying--nonexistance sounds better than that. Some people today think Hell actually IS nonexistance, though; and some people, who haven't thought about it enough, think Hell is a big party with the Devil and all your "bad" friends. Take your pick. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Unregistered user |
Heh, I'd just love to not exist. Life is so complicated and hard, and I'm such a lazy person with no skills to endure life I might as well not exist. I find no meaning in life, after all, all life will end in a few billion years. Maybe after-life has some meaning. Guess I'll just go and find out... |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 30 minutes and 45 seconds ago. |
A lot of people believe that life has no *intrinsic* value-- but you can make your own meaning. I don't believe that, but some do-- it's about the most optimistic you can get if you don't believe in an afterlife. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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