Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / Religion
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7521 days, 23 hours, 57 minutes and 25 seconds ago. |
Yes I agree with you on that case, but inside you would know it was unjust and self-forgiveness would not be completely possible without the action of asking the farther and girl for forgiveness. Randomly asking something like God to forgive you on the other hand, would not IMO be good enough. LS |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7521 days, 23 hours, 57 minutes and 25 seconds ago. |
Iridia: Not everyone can love something they can't sense or relate too. I haven't even met or spoken to God yet! Some people say that just feeling his presence or enjoying his gift is enough, but for many humans they need something more physical. Loving life in itself and appreciating nature is something universal that we all know exists and thusly we can all relate too. The thing is it takes a healthy perception to love life unconditionally, but I have to say that loving life is a more accessable foundation. LS |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 36 minutes and 20 seconds ago. |
I understand where you're coming from, Luke. God's in a whole different dimension from the world we live in, and it's hard to relate to something we can't see. There are many days when I wish God would just write messages in the sky, or send down a few angels... maybe get an e-mail address or a 1-800 line. The reason I say "love God" rather than "love life" is because of my world-view. Basically, where I'm coming from is the theistic-Christian viewpoint. To me, God is actually more important than life. Ever seen a boyfriend and girlfriend who are so in love that the circumstances around them don't seem to matter? It's kind of like that-except that when you love God, you're not dead to the world--you're more alive than you ever were, and you love life more than you ever did before. That's because God loves life, too. Why else would he have died so that we could have eternal life? Oops. That sounded like preaching. Excuse me. :) Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7521 days, 23 hours, 57 minutes and 25 seconds ago. |
How do you know that he died to give us eternal life? Because a book said so? Or that people preached to you? When I look upon life, it is all around me, it is clear and certain without a doubt. But with God I cannot help but notice there are possible deceptions motivated by hope and fear. I want God to show me himself, yet he does not even whisper to me even in my dreams. LS |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 13 minutes and 50 seconds ago. |
Luke: Re: Justice If I understand you correctly, one can make up for 'bad' actions by doing 'good' actions without ever acknowledging that the 'bad' actions were wrong to do. You are more forgiving than I. I think people are supposed to do 'good.' You can't make up for doing something 'bad' by doing what you should have been doing in the first place. A couple more simplistic example: If I steal money from my landlord, I can't make up for it by paying her the rent I would pay normally. If I miss my shift at work, I can't make it up to my overworked co-workers by simply taking the shifts I normally take. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 13 minutes and 50 seconds ago. |
Re: Repentance and forgiveness I define (class) repentance as an acknowledgement that one has done wrong and needs forgiveness. All these actions you describe, IMHO, would result from repenting, but they are not repentence in and of themselves. I do not think asking God for forgiveness is random. I believe that when we sin against ourselves, others, God or nature, we also sin against God -- To reuse my earier analogy, if I terrify a little girl, I also hurt her father -- That is why we should ask It for forgiveness. Of the reasons why we might not ask others for forgiveness, I can think of only one that would apply when not asking God for forgivenes: That we do not think we need to be forgiven. [Edited 3 times, last edit on 12/5/2002 at 16:06 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 36 minutes and 20 seconds ago. |
Luke said: "How do you know that he died to give us eternal life? Because a book said so? Or that people preached to you?" I know it for a lot of reasons. The primary one is that Christianity, and the Bible, make more sense than any other way of looking at the world. It gives us an answer to the questions: Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where are we going? The thing is, God did reveal himself in history. His time-scales aren't ours... often, we went hundreds of years without anything miraculous happening. We're in one of those times now. What we do have, though, is a record of God's biggest intervention in the world: the Bible. If you can say (whether by logic or faith) that you think the Bible is true, then you can figure out what God is like. I don't think God wants to force us to believe in him. If he started painting words in the sky, it wouldn't be a choice anymore. I think God values our free will very much... that he wants us to choose him because we wanted to, not because we had to, or because we were afraid he'd zap us if we didn't. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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calvin Unregistered user |
it makes me sad when i see an intelligent person whos religious, like a waste of a mind. iridia wrote: " I know it for a lot of reasons. The primary one is that Christianity, and the Bible, make more sense than any other way of looking at the world. It gives us an answer to the questions: Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where are we going?" i dont understand why some people cant just accept that some things you will never know in your lifetime. why must you have all of the answers? to me life would seem pretty boring if it was all laid out for me in a book. reminds me of a great poem. tiger got to hunt; bird got to fly; man got to sit and wonder why, why, why; tiger got to sleep; bird got to land; man got to tell himself he understand. |
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Greatr White Unicorn Unregistered user |
Iridia, sounds like speculation all the same. If I wrote a book with all the supposed answers in that made you feel good about life and claimed to have witnessed a holy event in the past would you blindly follow that too? |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 13 minutes and 50 seconds ago. |
Calvin: Re: Life, the Universe and Everything I'm acting on inferences and assumptions here. I am trying to read the spirit of your note, rather than the literal text. Can you tell us the specific things which, because we will never have complete understanding of them in this life, we should not think about nor try to understand better? (and why we should not do so) I infer that this was what you meant. If not, could you rephrase your point so that it is relevant? Read Literally, your post seems to criticize anybody wanting answers to anything, whether in the realm of philosophy, relativity, medicine or whatever uses the question "Why . . .?" IMHO, Iridia is not saying we must have all the answers, and, thus, that not having all the answers is unacceptable. Rather, she is saying we must seek for certain answers. She believes the answers to certain philosophical questions (not "all life") are in the Bible for those who bother to look. [Edited 3 times, last edit on 8/21/2003 at 15:03 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7521 days, 23 hours, 57 minutes and 25 seconds ago. |
The bible gives sage teachings on life, but it does not provide answers to questions such as why we are here or where did we come from. These are questions that are a mystery and can't be solved unless one seeks as you said and not preach ideas not proved. I believe fustration from religion derives from God seemingly being at the bottom of every mystery and everything. If we make a mistake, ask God to forgive you. If we do not know why we are here, God explains all. God is everything. God knows your fate. If in doubt, look to God etc. It seems God is focused on too much to step back and explore life on our own, sometimes we need to feel free like there is nothing watching us or judging our every move. If I were a hard-core Christian, I couldn't even look at an attractive girl in the same way for example. God being emphasised into too many concepts of deeper life without actually knowing what God is makes me feel a bit puzzled for another. LS |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 13 minutes and 50 seconds ago. |
Personally, I think the answers to these questions lie within us. I see the Bible as a guide to help us reach these answers, not a list of the answers themselves. I do not see why you would look at an attractive girl or woman differently if you were Christian. Could you elaborate? If God is at the center of so many life concepts, not knowing what God is would certainly be frustrating. Is that not a motivation for exploring and trying to learn more about what God is? (I know that's one of my motivations) In this case, there would be additional benefits: If God is at the center of so many life concepts, then getting to know God would help you understand life better. Additionally, exploring your life would help you get to know God better. [Edited 2 times, last edit on 12/6/2002 at 18:16 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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calvin Unregistered user |
what i meant was its stupid to beleive in the bible just for the sake of getting all the answers and sleeping easier at night, thats sounded how iridia was making it out. |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7521 days, 23 hours, 57 minutes and 25 seconds ago. |
Lust is wrong apparently, so if I look at an attractive girl who makes me feel lustful then that would be wrong for me right? Not knowing God isn't fustrating, it's puzzling. What I find fustrating is that God is linked to many mysterious in life without concrete proof, yet it is preached everywhere as if it were a scientific breaktrhough. Fulfilling motivation to explore the unknown won't lie in the bible - it lies outside in the world and, as you stated, within ourselves. The bible can't tell us much about our inner self from a personnel perception, only we can do that and by exposing ourselves to many experiences of life help us gain that insight. I believe that living by the book too much distracts us from finding our true selves. Getting to know God would let you get to know life better but getting to know potential illusions will distance us. Not everything in the bible will be true so finding God within is something I'd be more inclined to believe in. I have to totally agree with your first and last sentances Caladriel. LS |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7521 days, 23 hours, 57 minutes and 25 seconds ago. |
Personally, I think the answers to these questions lie within us. Additionally, exploring your life would help you get to know God better. LS |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 13 minutes and 50 seconds ago. |
Re: Lust and other feelings . . . Good or Bad? Hmmm, I don't consider sexual attraction to be wrong, and I don't believe Christ teaches that God does. I think the danger lies in feeding lust -- Not that that means much, since I can't really define what I mean by feed. Still, I see a difference between feeling physically attracted to a woman who walks by versus following her so you can sidle up and glare down her blouse. IMHO, the same thing goes with many feelings, particularly physical ones. For example, I think there is a difference between being upset with somebody versus feeding that anger with resentment and bitterness, so that the anger becomes an end in and of itself -- so that you do not want to take constructive steps to resolve the situation that is making you angry. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 12/9/2002 at 18:21 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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 Damon Registered user Last page view: 7946 days, 11 hours, 34 minutes and 47 seconds ago. |
Where and how do you draw the line between wrong and right though? |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 13 minutes and 50 seconds ago. |
Re: Bible I think you are incorrect. The Bible can tell you (or, rather, lead you to learn) much about your inner self. I will admit that it does not say everything straight out, and that you have to think about them. There are, at least, 2 ways to interpret the Bible: 1) you can deliberately try to come up with interpretations and explanations that you think are "morally" wrong. - You could then point to the Bible and say: "See; the Bible is wrong." 2) You can try the assumption that the Bible might hold the truth, and try to find interpretations that, deep down, resonate as true to you. - This requires you to look deep down inside yourself and search for the truth. Perhaps you can come to these truths entirely on your own (after all, BMB, Jesus did, and he was human) but I think it is very difficult to get past our own desires/fears. God is a wonderful guide. Especially if God is the destination. [Edited 3 times, last edit on 8/21/2003 at 15:11 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 13 minutes and 50 seconds ago. |
Damon: Re: Wrong and Right Personally, I think that in actuality, moral Right and Wrong are absolute, but functionally they are subjective (I get to argue with both sides this way :-) ) What I mean is that I think everybody knows right and wrong deep inside themselves, but that people are not always honest with themselves about this knowledge -- I know that I have explained away/justified countless petty wrongs. It is only after a more sincere evaluation and exploration of myself that I will admit I was wrong -- Thus it is absolute, because the knowledge is there, but functionally subjective, because you can never be 100% sure you are being honest with yourself. I think people need to explore their beliefs and motivations, and talk to others, seeking support and guidance. I think prayr helps immensely. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 12/9/2002 at 19:03 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Mishka Registered user Hopeless Last page view: 6330 days, 7 hours, 3 minutes and 2 seconds ago. |
"Religion is the neurosis of mankind" (freud) "Faugh!" snorted Tahngarth. "Why would it make a meal out of something like you?" Squee looked relieved. "No," he continued, "you'd make a much better toothpick." |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7521 days, 23 hours, 57 minutes and 25 seconds ago. |
If you reason deep enough with anything Caladriel you'll find some truth in it. I could read a Thomas the Tank Engine book and if I looked deep enough and dug up all the symbols and metophors I could probably find meaningful truth even if it speaks of fantasy. It is the inner perception that you really are reading, whatever it is you look deep into at the end of the day it is just another countless medium in the infinite cosmos of life. The bible has obviously a lot of depth but the final destination you speak of can be reached in countless different ways, my way is through exploration of life itself - appreciating nature, loving life, helping others, looking deeply into anything and being creative. What I'm saying is that if the bible is focused on too much you'll miss out on the other links to God, hence why many Christians don't seem to love life unconditionally, they seem closed off to the traditional ways of doing good and then getting the reward after they die - some of which seem to have no spark or adventuring nature and don't realise that life is a reward in itself. LS |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 13 minutes and 50 seconds ago. |
Luke: Heh, that is virtually the same idea I presented to a friend about astrology, the other day. :-) You have a good point. I have a couple concerns, though. The first is that in exploring life, people often see it as purely physical, and miss the spiritual aspect of it. As I believe God to be at the heart of most matters, missing the spiritual aspect of life can cause one to not explore a relationship with God. Secondly, I think there is more to existance than simply exploring it. I think, for proper health, we also must live certain ways. On the physical side, try to avoid damaging actions; on the spiritual/moral side, try to avoid actions that are "bad". I do not know if we have the strength to live such lives without support from God. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 13 minutes and 50 seconds ago. |
Mishka: I think the quote you meant is by Marx: "Religion is the opiate of mankind." . . . Or were you joking? |
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Mishka Registered user Hopeless Last page view: 6330 days, 7 hours, 3 minutes and 2 seconds ago. |
Caladriel: I read that quote from a book somewhere. No, I'm not joking, I think. To me, it makes sense. The fact is that we need religion and everything that comes with it. World would be a bitchy place without it. "Faugh!" snorted Tahngarth. "Why would it make a meal out of something like you?" Squee looked relieved. "No," he continued, "you'd make a much better toothpick." |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7521 days, 23 hours, 57 minutes and 25 seconds ago. |
Mishka, you could do to explain your fact a bit more, there's not a lot to go on. When I speak of exploration, I mean all aspects of life, physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. I find it hard to imagine someone taking the exploration of life seriously without such awareness. I agree that without such awarenesses we'd be closing off links with God. Exploring life would also include exploring other peoples lives and showing respect for them. I'd also say that living the certain way you speak of is obvious to most of us, and exploring life would not neglect such virutes. LS |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 13 minutes and 50 seconds ago. |
Luke: You don't have to imagine it. Ask calvin (If I undertood him correctly in one of these topics) He is not alone. Many people believe that we are purely physical, and that there is no supernatural side (spirit) You have more faith in mankind than I. I do not think living "right" is obvious to anybody, let alone myself. If it were, I think there would be less pain in the world. I know that sometimes I convince myself that something is good, even though, deep down, I know it to be wrong. My moral code probably has other fallacies which I have not confronted, yet. Besides, even accepting somethings as "right" and "wrong" does not mean one has the strength to do "right" and resist "wrong." My primary point in my previous post was that, without support from God, I do not know if we have the strength to live such lives. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 12/13/2002 at 13:54 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Mishka Registered user Hopeless Last page view: 6330 days, 7 hours, 3 minutes and 2 seconds ago. |
My knowledge of religion is still shallow, so don't get offended in any ways. I am here to learn. Luke: I think that belief is just a thing that people invented a 'long' time a go when they at the first time realized that they will die and they just couldn't live with it. In some point of everybody life you realize that you are going to die someday and you either accept the fact or you find religion. Still without religion what would the world be like? I try to live the way bible says, even if I havent 'found' God, at least not yet. "Faugh!" snorted Tahngarth. "Why would it make a meal out of something like you?" Squee looked relieved. "No," he continued, "you'd make a much better toothpick." |
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