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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 52 seconds ago. |
Yet Another Religous Thread. Sorry Lobster. I'm pulling out some of the nitty gritty religous threads from ADOM and Relationships Let me know if I missed any (Atheism and the Separation of Church and State are in Atheism and Church vs. State) If possible, can we keep posts to about 20 lines or less? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/28/2003 at 15:51 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 52 seconds ago. |
Lamaros wanted to know if Caladriel thinks a person needs to give God credit if they have lead a perfectly just and moral life, based on their own beliefs. Caladriel agreed that if a person has lived a perfectly just and moral life without the help of God, the God need not be given credit. Caladriel then wanted to know if Lamaros (or anybody) has lead a perfectly just and moral life. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 52 seconds ago. |
Caladriel wanted to know why people think God should not let bad things happen to good people -- or, more to the point, why people think this is "wrong" or evidence against the existance of God. Additionally, Caladriel disagreed that death is an intrinsically "bad" thing, from God's point of view, or that it should be viewed so by us. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/28/2003 at 15:58 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7171 days, 11 hours, 50 minutes and 7 seconds ago. |
"Caladriel agreed that if a person has lived a perfectly just and moral life without the help of God, the God need not be given credit. Caladriel then wanted to know if Lamaros (or anybody) has lead a perfectly just and moral life." I have a different question: Has anyone lead a perfectly just and moral life, even with the help of God? If that was the case I would cede my argument to you. However I believe that it's not the case and it is just as unlikely as someone living a perfectly just and moral without the help of God. It is based on this assumption that I believe whether or not God gets acknowledged is irrelevent. |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7098 days, 21 hours, 40 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
"Caladriel then wanted to know if Lamaros (or anybody) has lead a perfectly just and moral life." Lamaros Said: "I have a different question: Has anyone lead a perfectly just and moral life, even with the help of God? My answer: I dont know anyone (with or without God's help) who has ever been perfect, nor do i believe there ever will be a person who will (with the exception of Jesus, which some people seem to doubt.) So whether or not a person needs to give God credit for leading a perfectly just and moral life, doesn't really matter, because no one ever has, and ever will. (: |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 52 seconds ago. |
Lamaros: Your question does not answer my question. As I recall, you believed yourself to be the source of your moral values. You wanted to know whether or not I thought you needed God if you lead a just and moral life. I acknowledged that you would not. But the question remains: Have you lead a just and moral life? My next post depends on your answer to that question. BTW, in answer to your unrelated question, no, I do not think anybody has lead a perfectly moral life, even with the help of God (Messiah excepted). |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7171 days, 11 hours, 50 minutes and 7 seconds ago. |
My answer is no, of course. I couldn't say what I've said and think otherwise. [Edited 2 times, last edit on 9/3/2003 at 21:46 (GMT -5) by Lamaros] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 52 seconds ago. |
I thought that would be your answer, but I'd like to take nothing for granted. :-) So what happens when you fail to live up to your moral code? BTW, did you finish your last post? It looks incomplete. |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7098 days, 21 hours, 40 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
He might have just put a comma instead of a period. (: |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7171 days, 11 hours, 50 minutes and 7 seconds ago. |
Re: Incomplete For some reason I often write could when I meant to write couldn't. (comma was a mistake too) [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/3/2003 at 21:46 (GMT -5) by Lamaros] |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7098 days, 21 hours, 40 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
Oh, ok. Makes sense. (: |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 52 seconds ago. |
Lamaros: You never gave an answer to my second question. I think you made an assumption about my first question. My previous posts had tried to express that I think it important to have God as the focus of your life, because anything else will let you down. Therefore, if you, yourself, are the center of your life, what happens when you fail? What happens when you hurt another person? What happens when you "sin" (by whatever definitions you use) Additionally, why to you become angry at people who act on beliefs that differ from yours? How can you be angry at them, based on your morality, if they are allowed to create their own morality . . . Or are they not allowed to do so (Is the Golden rule part of your beliefs?) Now you have two questions to answer (What happens when you fail, and why do you get angry). It's your own fault for taking so long! :-P~ [Edited 2 times, last edit on 9/11/2003 at 17:25 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7171 days, 11 hours, 50 minutes and 7 seconds ago. |
I don't become angry at people who act on beliefs that differ from mine, unless those beliefs impinge upon me or others. Perhaps this is ironic, but when someone tells me "I'm right, you're wrong and if you don't agree with me you're going to hell" I tend to get annoyed (angry might be stretching it, it'd be closer to annoyed resignation and righteous? pity). Even then I wouldn't direct it at the person (though I acknowledge that sometimes my language might seem like it does), but rather the statement they said and the views they hold that provoked it. When I fail I say to myself "ugh, that wasn't right. Let's not do that again." I do what I can to fix any problems created as a result of the failure and I move on. Basicly. How does God not let you down any more than my set of beliefs not let me down? I guess I could call the perfect image of a being, in accordance with my beliefs, a 'God'. But for me that's not a step that makes any difference. Deifying my beliefs is a psychological concept that I don't feel adds anything, and that I can do without. I hope you don't find this blasphemous or anything, it's not intended to be. What happens when you fail? |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7098 days, 21 hours, 40 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
What exactly do you mean by 'fail?' (: |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 52 seconds ago. |
Lamaros: Re: Anger Why do you get angry when somebody says you are going to Hell? Particularly, if you do not believe so? I can see how actions could impinge on you, but how do words do so? When they say such things, they are simply expressing what they have convinced themselves they believe, just as you do (IMHO) when you condemn them for it. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/14/2003 at 13:41 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 52 seconds ago. |
Lamaros: Re: Failing to follow your own morals I'm not sure I quite follow. Are you saying that when you "sin," is it sufficient for you, the person who did the "sinning," to judge and to forgive yourself? If you are the center/foundation/moral source of your life, and you break those morals, I would think the center of your life has failed you. During those times when God is relatively center in my life, if It "sinned" then I would say my foundation failed me. But God hasn't sinned. Additionally, if I fail to follow God's morals ("sin") when I finally stop failing, and turn to God with true repentence, I believe God forgives me. I do not know of anybody who unconditionally loves, accepts and forgives themselves. Are you such a person? All the people I know beat themselves up over something -- Missed opportunity, physical appearance, social mistakes, status, wealth, etc. |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7171 days, 11 hours, 50 minutes and 7 seconds ago. |
I do unconditionaly love, accept and forgive myself. I don't need to imagine some sentient being (for the words you use to describe God imply all that) who loves and cares for me and forgives my lapses, I can do that myself. I believe it achieves the same end but people are different, and what works for me might not work for everyone. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 52 seconds ago. |
That's impressive. If you can truly completely forgive yourself when you do something stupid or cruel, and never dwell on it after you've acknowledged that it was just a mistake, then you are the most level headed person I have ever encountered. As for me, I'm still kicking myself for the parking ticket I got last Wednesday. Well, if there is no God or spirituality outside of ourselves, then I agree that whatever gets you by is fine. Personally, though, if I am the one guilty of something, then I do not think that I am in a position to give the absolution. Heh, that would be very convenient, though. |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7171 days, 11 hours, 50 minutes and 7 seconds ago. |
Where does the absolution come from, if not yourself? It's not like God pops up and says "I absolve you of your sins." Either you allow God to forgive you through your own thoughts and actions. Or you go through life carrying everything on your back and have no forgiveness untill you get to heaven. For me it seems that the person who allows themselves to feel forgiven (and thus forgive themselves) because God forgives them is no different to me. It's a just a perception. But like I said, each to their own. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 52 seconds ago. |
BMB, absolution comes from God. You have an advantage over me. If I understand correctly, you have completely forgiven yourself for all your mistakes, and absolved yourself of all the times you've been cruel or have hurt somebody. I've forgiven myself, to an extent, but I still periodically hold myself accountable for and punish myself with guilt over the times I've been nasty or malicious. That is one reason why I cannot be the center of my life: I fail to be a proper support during those times that I do not accept myself, and If I simply absolve myself . . . well . . . That way lies megalomania. Another reason I cannot be the center of my life is the fact I "sinned" in the first place. Additionally, unless one rejects the golden rule, how does one justify getting angry at (essentially, judging) others, if we define our morals ourselves? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/22/2003 at 10:17 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7171 days, 11 hours, 50 minutes and 7 seconds ago. |
So, I'm destined to be a megalomaniac and you're destined to carry around all sorts of baggage that wieghs you down for the rest of your life. I'll be happy yet insufferable... and you just won't be happy. Donesn't seem anyone wins I suppose. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 52 seconds ago. |
:-D (I guess we would lose the fun of hyperbole, If you wrote ". . . and you just won't always be happy") [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/21/2003 at 13:14 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3758 days, 9 hours, 25 minutes and 22 seconds ago. |
*points at Bible* There is a middle ground, ya know... Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 52 seconds ago. |
I think we are both perfectly happy with our hyperbole, thank you very much. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 52 seconds ago. |
Iridia: I was kidding. Lamaros' post skips the fact that I believe in God. If I soley depended on myself for forgiveness, I would be unhappy (since I am not able to perfectly forgive) but, as I can turn to God for forgiveness, I my failings need not make me unhappy. I am curious about your thoughts on this. From your post, I am guessing you disagree with my ideas. With what do you disagree about them? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 4/18/2005 at 10:16 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3758 days, 9 hours, 25 minutes and 22 seconds ago. |
Oh, not too much disagreement really; but if you're constantly punishing yourself with guilt over things you've done, you'll just end up with low self-esteem and that's not very healthy. I figure, if God accepts me and he's willing to forgive me, then once I've asked for forgiveness, it shouldn't matter to me anymore. Sure, I'll have to deal with the consequences; and I had better remember so that I don't repeat my mistakes; but the past is the past, Jesus paid for my sins, and that's the end of it. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 52 seconds ago. |
Heh, I never did say I was constantly punishing myself over mistakes. However, there are some issues that I still occasionally look back on and cringe. I had a perfect driving record for 15 years! Rats. Then there was that disasterous date I went on a few years ago . . . *shudder* Is it just me? Is there nothing that your mind occasionally wanders back to, for which you then kick yourself? |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3758 days, 9 hours, 25 minutes and 22 seconds ago. |
heh, yeah. But I shouldn't. Die Gedanken sind Frei |