Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / Religion god n all that jazz
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Madman Unregistered user |
Well I just got some time off ans that sent me thinking. Shouldnt man do away with religion already.God exists ok.But religion is mans doin.Theres no denying man.Religion was meant to unify man.However all its done is divide mankind.In the name of god?Bullshit!Everyones just using religion for personal n poltical vendetta.Areggghh!I'm boilin with anger.I hate religion.I'm too worked up to say anymore.I'll post later. |
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Palagran Registered user Furry Hybrid Last page view: 6369 days, 4 hours, 23 minutes and 50 seconds ago. |
This isn't practical. People who believe in their religions won't budge. :P You're just thinking wishfully. This is funny because most religions are based on the logical fallacy of wishful thinking. |
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Jan Erik Administrator Last page view: 4 days, 17 hours, 34 minutes and 58 seconds ago. |
How true, in the final analysis religion have only rely served those in power. Throughout the history it's always been: "The emperor is a God, obey him" "The priests are close to God, obey them" "The king have been apointed by God, obey him" "The president have God's blessing, obey him" And then there is the endless row of people eager to dispense "God's will"... But then again, removing all religion won't fix anything. You need not look longer than a couple of decades back to find a major idiological conflict complete with "witch hunts", armed uprisings and the odd war based entierly on politics (and a good doze of nationalism)... Religion is a handy tool for rallying support, but if it's not there people will just use nationalism, rasism, or pure politics instead (or in combination) with much the same result... As they say man is man's worst enemy... Jan Erik Mydland HoF admin |
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Madman Unregistered user |
True you just cant remove religion.An there are wars n fightin for other reasons too. My point is that religion was meant to unify man but all its done is create more war,hate etc.My point is that religion wasnt made in heaven.Even the most fanatic pious person has to accept that.Man made religion. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4704 days, 21 hours, 2 minutes and 49 seconds ago. |
Madman: Do you think that eliminating religion would stop people from pursuing personal and political vendettas? Do you think that eliminating religion would make people less likely to do so? Personally, I doubt it: Child slavery and prostitution in Indonesia is not motivated by religion. The abominations inflicted on the muslims in Bosnia was not motivated by religion. The present treatment of Native Americans in the U.S. is not motivated by religion. These are just some of the examples. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4704 days, 21 hours, 2 minutes and 49 seconds ago. |
IMHO, if people did not have religion to use as an excuse, they would find some other reason. Rather than directing my anger at religion, I, myself, feel angry at those who use religion for their own ends. BTW, be careful when saying ". . . there's no denying . . ." and ". . . [they have] to accept . . ." That seems like the same kind of rhetoric employed by those who would use religion for their own ends. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4704 days, 21 hours, 2 minutes and 49 seconds ago. |
Jan: I disagree that religion has only helped those in power. Catholicism lead to the missions to help the poor in India. The Christian principle of looking out for thy fellow man has lead to the creation of countless Hospitals. Many schools throughout the U.S. evolved from Jewish institutions. The Nation of Islam played an enormous part in uplifting inner city blacks. On a personal note, religion brought me in contact with God, which, I believe, has been of immeasurable benefit to me, and I am far from a person in power. I believe that when people follow the teachings of their religion, as opposed to following their own fears and desires in the name of their religion, enormous good has resulted. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 1/18/2002 at 14:30 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Jan Erik Administrator Last page view: 4 days, 17 hours, 34 minutes and 58 seconds ago. |
Ok, I'll agree that a lot of people have been helped by religious oriented chairities and so on. However my point was more like, are there fewer poor people because of religion, do they cause less war and missery and so on? IMHO the answer is no. Generaly speaking I think religion as a consept have caused more pain than healing throughout history. I'm not trying to diminish the great work a lot of religions organizations and such are doing, but in the final analyzins they only rely do dammage controll rather than problem solving (a lot of the poverty in India for example is caused (in part) by the cast system, wich is based on religion). That doesn't mean that I think that the consept of religion in itself is "evil" or anything. It's just yet another victim of the tendency humans have to use anything that set one group of peope apart from another as a tool to gain power or recognition. Jan Erik Mydland HoF admin |
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Brotherforest Registered user Saviour of Trees Last page view: 8134 days, 9 hours, 37 minutes and 59 seconds ago. |
There are similarities in most religions: 1. Breeding - like "go and fill the lands with my people", some religions prohibit any use of birth control, some ban TV so what else is there to do.. 2. Dislike - more people have probably died because their religion, than in accidents, floods and etc. Wasn't WTC attack about jihad? If you can't make'em join you, beat'em. 3. Threats - hell, reincarnation as a rat etc. Halaa puuta
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4704 days, 21 hours, 2 minutes and 49 seconds ago. |
Jan: Are there less wars because of religion? Probably not. Is there less suffering because of religion? I actually believe that there is. From what I have learned, many humanitarian organizations would not exist without religion, while most wars and such would occur with or without religion. Give me some examples, where you think religion is the primary cause, and I will try to show a similar secular example (Read IMHO infront of every entry below): People claim the Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials were based on religion; but they was more an enforcement by those in power; and the same methods were used in Stalin Era communism and the McCarthy Red Scare. People claim the Crusades and the subjugation of the indigenous Americans were based on religion; but they were more a grab at resources and wealth; and the same methods were used by the Germans crushing Poland and the Sudetanland and by the Iraqis invading Kuwait. People claim that the attacks on the Twin Towers were based on Religion; but they were more a lashing out by the Have Nots against the (perceived or actual) oppression and cultural imperialism of the Haves, ala Timothy McVey in Oklahoma City. I will agree that religion is often used as an excuse for attrocities, but, IMHO, since these attrocities would have occurred, using some other tool, had religion not been available, I do not think it fair to say that suffering is greater because of religion. [Edited 2 times, last edit on 10/18/2002 at 11:45 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Jan Erik Administrator Last page view: 4 days, 17 hours, 34 minutes and 58 seconds ago. |
You are right naturaly. Relition is just an aliby used by those in power to get the masses to go along with them. Nationalism is another big one, mix the two and BOOM (wich is why alarm bells keep going off in my head every time I hear Bush speak about this rigthious war agaisnt the evil forces that struck down all theyr American brothers and sisters. God bless...(I mostly agree with the war on terrorism, I just don't like the way they play on religion and nationalism to gain public support)). That was sort of my point all along, though I might have gotten a bit carried away listing all the bad sides and not stressing enough that I don't think religion in itself is bad. It just tend to get corupted. The ones in power very rarely have purely religious reasons for what they do, but they use religion as a tool to get the "ignorant" masses to go along with them (usualy mixed with a healthy dose of nationalism). What I mean is, the Kings and Lords that sent solders to the crusades probably where more concerned with treasure and power than religious ideals, but the average soldier probably though he was doing something noble and holy. The terroris leaders are clearly had political motices for attacking the WTC and the Pentagon, but those that captured the planes probably wouldn't have done it if they hadn't been convinced they would become holy marthyrs by doing so... So yes, religion in itself isn't bad. Just like a car isn't bad even though it can be used to mow down innocent people, just too bad we can't licence people to "use" religion like we can cars... Jan Erik Mydland HoF admin |
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Kayaman Registered user Last page view: 7739 days, 18 hours, 7 minutes and 33 seconds ago. |
Catholism sucks and pope is satan! |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3763 days, 11 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds ago. |
IMO, The pope is a poor misled fool who thinks he is actually "sinless". A lot of people share your view about Catholicism--it is dying out in America (from what I heard on the news) because people from the new generation are realizing it's just a bunch of hocus-pocus and rituals. Mostly all Catholicism is doing today (if you don't count Ireland) is misleading people into thinking that if they say enough Hail Mary's they'll get to heaven. That annoys me to no end! Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Tha Messiah Registered user Angel of Death Last page view: 7785 days, 43 minutes and 28 seconds ago. |
This topic is rather cliched. I agree with what Jan n Madman say.People in power abuse religion.Is Bin Laden really all that pious.No way. But the sad truth is religion was not forged in heaven.Though they were all started for the good of mankind they have now been perverted towards selfish causes.Again like Jan said priests held power. My point : Whether the world would have been better place or not without religion is debateable.Man needs somethin to believe in. THE MESSIAH,I'm here now,Worship me. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3763 days, 11 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds ago. |
I don't really think all religion has been perverted. I have a lot of friends who are sincerely religious, and their lives, and mine, are better because of it. Religion, like anything else in the world, CAN be perverted into something it wasn't meant to be--but it's more an effect than a cause: Evil in the world isn't caused by religion; rather, evil in the world has corrupted religion. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Duke Ravage Registered user Gravebane Zombie Last page view: 5670 days, 14 hours, 45 minutes and 3 seconds ago. |
this is no strange topic to me. i've had many conversations with many people on simalar subjects. someone mentioned the missions. i will agree that generally, the missionarys did what they did with good intent. however if you look at most of what has happened as a result in the last thousand years due to missions, a lot of it was negative. not all, i will agree. but especially in africa, when the natives were exposed to christianity, it put them into a good deal of turmoil. read Things Fall Apart to get a glimps of what i'm talking about. and into this turmoil, came governments, seeing the oprotunity to use the natives' confusion to take over and expoit them with little resistance. and you are right; man does need something to believe in. i'm still trying to find something to believe in; ATM i'm worshiping my computer *g* (j/k). but there are some strange anomolys in whether or not religion actually is real: if there is only one god, who's worshiping him and who isn't? is the Pope doing god's will, or is Bin Laden? there are lots of signs that point to a lack of a single God, let alone 22 or 23 or however many different gods are worshiped on this planet. but then again, if there isn't a God (or gods), then how did the universe come to exist? somewhere i heard tell of supposedly "looking back in time" by looking over vast distances, to catch a glimpse of the Big Bang. thing is, in order to actually see the Big Bang from earth, we would have to have been ejected from it at speeds well exeeding C. then we would have had to slow down, which in a vacuum is imposible (unless you're spitting stuff out in the way you're going, which i don't think we have). so we can't proove that... and what would have started the big bang neways? i've personally got 2 theorys on the creation of the universe, both of which have the easy potential to be shot through to bits. 1: some superior being (God) created all that exists and made all the rules and everything, and now is watching and fixing things here and there. but i don't think we're alone in the universe, thus God is dealing with not only us but lots of other planets full of people, which means that he can't always be there for everyone that's praying for him to do something for them. problem: how can something will itself to exist if it doesn't have a will at first to do the willing? did he will his will into existance? 2: (this one's a bit weird) we're a very grand science project for a member of a far superior race. he/she made the whateveritwas that did the big-bang deal and has been sitting back watching and recording everything for billions upon trillions upon zillions etc etc etc years. problem: it's totally whacked out. mmk, got off topic. point is, the religious ideas we have now are getting a bit old & moldy, but religion itself will never become obsolete. ivan.sourceforge.net |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3763 days, 11 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds ago. |
Strange as it may seem, your "science project" idea isn't so "whacked-out". A lot of people, especially those in the sci-fi crowd, believe it to one degree or another. Around 1800, there was also deism, which is a worldview similar to that; a deist would believe that there was a God, but He created the universe and let it run, not intervening, and not really caring what happened to it. (Informally called the "great clock-winder" idea). I disagree with the idea that God doesn't care, though, because there are things in the world that, if they don't prove, strongly suggest the existence of some sort of supernatural interference in the world. As a Christian, I believe that the Bible is one of those things--that God stepped in and showed people what to write. This is backed up (circumstantially) by the fact that the Bible's historical background has never been proven false, and a statistically improbable number of prophecies made by the prophets in it that have come true. (I am not sure if this is true for the holy books of other religions; if so, it would indicate more than one God, since Allah and Jesus just don't mix! Something about destroy your enemies vs. love your enemies...) So divine intervention, in one form or another, seems to me almost impossible to deny. So, tell me, does your computer give you more piety points if you make a burnt offering of a floppy disk? Or does it require CD-roms? :D Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 1 time, last edit on 1/21/2002 at 23:03 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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Duke Ravage Registered user Gravebane Zombie Last page view: 5670 days, 14 hours, 45 minutes and 3 seconds ago. |
burnt floppys? hmmm, i don't think it'd like that. kinda like saccing a lvl 1 goblin when you're lvl 50. but smashed AOL, Earthlink etc CDs placed behind it are pretty effective at keeping it happy (and avoiding crashes). seems best if you can smash the disc but keep it in one piece (done it once). and finally, if your computer is one of the violent sorts, taking a disc outside with a good-sized stick (or metal baseball bat) and utterly destroying it helps. plus it's fun. ivan.sourceforge.net |
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Kayaman Registered user Last page view: 7739 days, 18 hours, 7 minutes and 33 seconds ago. |
BTW. There was just some pathetic nerd in abandonware.orgs forum dat said he believes in science when they were talking about god. Next message he posted was about he cant use any forum with his explorer. Maybe he has not praised micro$oft enuf and now this his own god "science" has judged him. Pity nerds, har har:) |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4704 days, 21 hours, 2 minutes and 49 seconds ago. |
Iridia: Not that I agree with Catholicism (in fact, I do not) but I don't think you are giving them a fair representation. The Pope is not believed to have never sinned. Rather, his sins are believed to have been forgiven and he is believed to be able to forgive sins. I have not heard that Catholicism is dying out, nor do I think it teaches that "with enough Hail Mary's" you will go to heaven. I do agree with you that religion is good, having benefitted from my own relationship with God immensely. I would be careful about claiming prophesies have been fulfilled and claiming that this is evidence. With the proper interpretation, I can claim the fulfillment of prophesies from the Torah and the rest of the Old Testament, the New Testament, The Koran, Nostradamus and the box of Crackerjacks I ate last night. Out of curiosity, have you read the Koran and/or studied Islam? Personally, I think it fits with Jesus' teachings quite well -- at least as much as the Old Testament. [Edited 2 times, last edit on 1/28/2002 at 13:50 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4704 days, 21 hours, 2 minutes and 49 seconds ago. |
Jan: That was very well said and I largely agree with you. I do still think that the King's during the crusades and the Osama Bin Laden's during the 9/11 would have found some other motivating force, had religion not been available -- During WWI, soldiers in the trenches ran into slaughtering fields in the name of country; the charge of the light brigade essentially describes suicide in the name of honor and duty. BTW, every time I hear Bush say "the evil ones" I come close to losing my breakfast. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3763 days, 11 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds ago. |
I hadn't extensively studied the Koran before this, but I read some of it today and there are similarities. I think the similarities between the Old Testament and the Koran are not a coincidence: Abraham, the father of Judaism (the Old Testament is the Torah of the Jews), passed that heritage on to his son Isaac. His other son, Ishmael, is the one the Muslims attribute to be their founder. The two religions, Judaism and Islam, (ironically) shared a common culture at their very beginnings (though it is very likely that Judaism did not become formalized until Moses, and Islam much later, with Muhammad). If you didn't know this (you probably did), Christianity was started by a Jew (Jesus) who fulfilled the prophecies for the Jewish Messiah. (Judaism still exists because many Jews did not accept him as Messiah, thanks to the political climate of the day. Some did--they call themselves Messianic Jews, an entirely new hybrid of Judaism and Christianity.) I checked out some of the prophecies you mentioned in the Koran, and they seemed pretty vague, kinda like foretelling the future in a horoscope, that anything could seem to fulfill. I don't know about any other religions' holy books, though. Christianity and Islam are different, though, in many ways, especially their effects. In Christianity, the treatment of women is basically the same as that of men, except when they marry, the men should be the "team leaders" for the families (so that women are equal in worth but have differing roles). Islam is more extreme than this, as is shown by this verse in the Koran (I think this is the only time it speaks of beating your wife, though I didn't read the whole thing). Koran 4.34: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. Um, if I were a Muslim, I wouldn't like that. Try to leave your husband and he can beat you???! Surprisingly, I couldn't find the word "jihad" anywhere in the Koran. Is the concept there? So are the Muslim terrorists "using" their religion for their own ends? I tend to think so. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Jan Erik Administrator Last page view: 4 days, 17 hours, 34 minutes and 58 seconds ago. |
IIRC, that sure (verse) refeer to "disobedient" and or unfaithfull women, the old testament is pretty strict on such things too I believe (granted I was uneable to find any examples in my quick search though my non-didgital copy). If you look at 3. Book of Moses chapter 20 verse 9 - 27 for example you'll find a lot of rules on sexual interaction though (granted not quite the same thing, but there is a lot of "... shall be put to death" in there) However I believe that the muslim 'divorce' rule is supposed to work equaly for men and women (male dominated cultures tend to "forget" this aparently). That is if there is a legitemate reason any marrage can be disolved when either party have said they want a divorce for the 3. time (IIRC they have to word it in a spesific way). How this work in practice is another matter... You most likely won't find the WORD "jihad" firstly because it's just a word, and if you read a translation it will have been translated too (look for "holy war" and such instead), and secondy because it's not nessesarily spelled "j i h a d". The Koran is often spelled Quran, for example (I've seen that a few places anyway). IIRC "jihad" is the term used for a war against the enemies of Islam (someone who try to destroy the religion that is). I think there are plenty of sures (verses) about it, but it's defenently beeng "over used". I can't think of that many wars where the existence of Islam itself have been at stake... I'm far from an expert on this tough, most of what I "know" about Islam from from 3. parties (various net sites, and religious history from shool) Jan Erik Mydland HoF admin |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3763 days, 11 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds ago. |
Yeah, I've checked out the sexual rules in the O.T. Back then, the Jews didn't have decent medicine, antibiotics, or STD clinics. Anything BUT marriage between one woman and one man, with divorce permitted but discouraged, could easily have led to an epidemic of who-knows-what that would have wiped out the entire nation. (There were also strict rules pertaining to all sorts of disease symptoms, with the most common treatment being quarantine.) Same thing with the dietary laws: If you don't have refrigeration, it's just plain stupid to eat pork or oysters. And, IIRC, the Jews were some of the healthiest people in their day. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Brotherforest Registered user Saviour of Trees Last page view: 8134 days, 9 hours, 37 minutes and 59 seconds ago. |
Help me out here... Halaa puuta
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4704 days, 21 hours, 2 minutes and 49 seconds ago. |
Iridia: re: Christianity and Islam in General Um . . . The founder of Islam was Muhammad (in ~610 A.D, I believe), not Ishmael. You might call that one of the defining aspects of the religion . . . I'm sorry, I am being sarcastic. In all honesty, you would call that one the two defining aspects of the faith. Hence the saying: "There is no god but God, and Muhammad is the Prophet of God." If you ask a Muslim why there are so many similarities, s/he would tell you that it is because both Abraham and Muhammad heard and recited the word of God verbatim. Over time, however, Abraham's teachings became corrupted. Something like 25 people are supposed to have received the word of God, including Jesus, but all of the teachings, until Muhammad, eventually were corrupted by the fears, desires, arrogance, selfishness, etc. of those who came after. How do you define Christianity? If you define it as one who believes Jesus was the Christ, or as one who follows the teachings of Jesus, then wouldn't Jesus have been the first Christian? After all, he believed himself to be the Christ, and one would assume that he followed his own teachings. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 1/24/2002 at 11:29 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4704 days, 21 hours, 2 minutes and 49 seconds ago. |
re: Prophesies: I didn't mention any prophesies. I only pointed out where some can be found. Are you saying that you have found un-vague -- that is, precise -- prophesies in the Bible? I would very much like to hear them. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 1/24/2002 at 11:31 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4704 days, 21 hours, 2 minutes and 49 seconds ago. |
re: Treatment of Women: "Men should be the 'Team Leaders.'" . . . Well, I guess we are all allowed to have our interpretations. I have heard other interpretations that I cannot entirely discount, claiming the Bible says husbands should be the Masters, and that would make the wives . . . slaves? Decoration? I would very much like to know where the New testament says that women are men's equals. I do recall a verse in 1 Corinthians claiming that it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. I do not know of any biblical references to beating, fortunately. Still, adultery is punishable by death in the Old Testament. As Jan says, some claim that your disturbing Koran verse actually translates to infidelity. I will admit though, that you have found one of the most disturbing verses in the Koran for me. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4704 days, 21 hours, 2 minutes and 49 seconds ago. |
re: Jihad Even in Arabic, "jihad" does not appear in the Koran (nor "Holy War" in English) Why are you surprised? In th Bible, can you find the word "Crusade"? Can you find the word "Inquisition" used as an organization rather than as a synonym for "question"? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 1/24/2002 at 11:38 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3763 days, 11 hours, 25 minutes and 19 seconds ago. |
Caladriel: You're right, I'd better re-phrase that. Ishmael wasn't the founder of Islam, he was the founder of the Arabic peoples, one of which was Muhammad, and most of whom are now Muslims. The history of Islam in the Koran (I think) starts with Ishmael. To know if Abraham's teachings (or Moses, or any of the prophets') have been corrupted seems to me impossible. If they were, the original copies of the Torah would be significantly different from the modern ones. We don't have the originals (and neither do the Muslims have the original Koran), but the Jews were always extremely careful when they copied their Scriptures (which were written down by Moses as he received them from God). They would count every letter in the line, then on the page; check every word three times, and so on. The oldest copies we have of the Old Testament match the ones we have today. The New Testament has also been carefully preserved; picture a monk painstakingly writing and re-checking every letter, and you'll get the picture. I think that where the Koran and the Bible differ, one is right and the other is wrong--no "corruption" about it. (I would assume the Koran also has changed little since the original.) Defining Christianity... You are right when you say the Christianity we know today started with Jesus; however, the same God chose the Jews as His people much earlier, and even before that interacted with such people as Adam, Enoch, and Noah. So you could say it "started" with Adam, the first man; or you could say it started when Jesus rose from the dead; or you could say it started when the last book of the New Testament was written. I define "being a Christian" as someone who believes that Jesus became the substitute to bear the judgement of God for that person. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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