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Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / ADOM / Bookcasting

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Zephyr
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Solar


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4911 days, 23 hours, 15 minutes and 37 seconds ago.
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2008 at 10:06 (GMT -5)

Out of curiosity, how many of you use bookcasting as opposed to casting from knowledge? I, personally, am a regular caster. My reasons are as follows. In the early game, casting from books is expensive in energy and power points, which can make all the difference, killing off an aspiring lv<6 wizard because he just doesn't have enough PP to cast again, or he doesn't kill it in one hit and gets smushed. In general, reading a book dry at a low level (As a Wizard) will give you at the least 200 castings, I feel it is fair to say. Even if those castings are in a spell you need, there is usually another spell you can use instead, such as various bolt/ball spells, etc. Any other spells you won't be using nearly as often, in my experiance. I don't think I've ever run out of castings with a wizard, because more bolt spells are common, and after a while, you end up with enough knowledge of any of them to cast them whenever you need, which is still cheaper in PP and Energy. Now, what I'd like is someone to explain the benefits of bookcasting, for example, I *think* it trains Learning, but I don't really do it, so I don't know. I just think that the unlimited castings is of pretty little use. I do play pure spellcasters, so that would mean higher learning and mana. If only there could be duels in Adom. Then we could have a bookcaster duel a knowledge-caster, and solve this argument...
Give a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day. Light a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

Do you prefer bookcasting over casting from knowledge?
Yes  No
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vogonpoet
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4969 days, 17 hours, 47 minutes and 27 seconds ago.
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2008 at 10:19 (GMT -5)

Helps train Mana. A lot.

Crossing the wilderness? Bookcast Farsight and Strength of Atlas constantly as you go... ambushed by something? Bookcast deathray, feel the mana stat begin to rise....
Darren Grey
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4252 days, 10 hours, 16 minutes and 43 seconds ago.
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2008 at 10:27 (GMT -5)

I never bookcast combat spells, but utility spells I'll often bookcast heavily, especially Teleport. Having infinite casting of Farsight and Strength of Atlas is nice too, as vogonpoet states, since it will mean you have them present for the entire game. Non-casters also benefit strongly from book-casting, since they'll have trouble getting many castings from any books they happen to find.

Spells that cost more PP also train the Mana stat more. A lot more. So using expensive spells or book-casting a lot will net you a huge bonus to your Mana stat over the course of the game.
Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse."
AshenPlanet
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3190 days, 23 hours, 40 minutes and 25 seconds ago.
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2008 at 13:52 (GMT -5)

I only bookcast with non-pure casters.
ie. someone other than wizards, necros, clerics, and druids.

Pure casters find more than enough books, especially with treasure hunter.
Non-book casters can have trouble finding and in some cases even reading books.
eg. Barbarians and farmers have massive penalties to reading, and reading books can be hazardous to their health.
For those classes, I'll only read a book once to get the spell in my list, and then just bookcast it from then on so that I won't be in danger from getting confused, blinded, toughness drained, exploded, etc...
Even for non-combat spells, I don't think any pure caster can ever run out of farsight or strength of atlas, even if you have them going for the entire game.

Book casting does not train mana any more than any other method of using your power.
Using power in any form, whether by casting, book casting, or using the phial of caladriel will train your mana.
The more power you use, the more your mana trains.
Casting 4 10pp firebolts trains your mana the same amount as bookcasting 40pp firebolt once or using 40 pp on the phial of caladriel.
It's always better to cast 4 times than once for casters.
You've done 4 times as much damage, buffed for 4 times as long, etc.
You've also trained your effectivity infinitely faster, since bookcasting does not train effectivity at all, and effectivity is the lifeblood of all casters - more damage, cheaper cost, longer duration, etc.

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gut
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Painted this one too.


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4910 days, 12 hours, 33 minutes and 39 seconds ago.
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2008 at 15:45 (GMT -5)

AHHH CRAP! I just noticed this is in the non-spoiler thread. Ugh, I'm just hiding it all.


Spoiler

> Book casting does not train mana any more than any other method
> of using your power.

I have no code dived info on the subject, but my personal exp. says that using PP's in larger chunks trains the Ma stat faster than smaller chunks. If using the Phial trains the Ma stat, I suppose I have just been very unlucky with my attempts.

> Out of curiosity, how many of you use bookcasting as opposed to

Bookcasting is not supposed to be 'opposed to' but rather as a 'compliment to' regular casting. Here is an example of using bookcasting that I would use in my limited turns games: read your starting books once, bookcast the most PP's expensive spell you can, take a few steps through the wilderness, cast again, a few more steps and so on, when you get to the SMC you will be quite likely to gain an increase to your Ma stat upon gaining exp. level 2. Very efficient : ) If one is not concerned about turns, they could then exit the SMC, wilderness bookcast a bit more, and gain another increase to Ma upon gaining exp. level 3, and so on for very easy and impressive gains.

One other use for bookcasting, is to allow a more flexible early game. Personally, I have beat the game a gazillion times and care little for the Terinyo stuff with wizards, they just don't need it. I like to head west to the BUGWIL for an easy ~13 exp. levels. If one uses this tactic without making use of bookcasting, they will not have enough spells to last them through the early game. Of course one COULD scum the ID for more offensive books, but that's not exactly fun.

There is also the facet about not wanting your survival to be so dependant upon the RNG giving you books. I have had games in the past where offensive spellbooks just didn't come along before Dwarftown, and yes that was with TH (as I used to be a believer). If a player is crafty with avoiding traps, and gets the waterproof blanket from the SMC, your books will stay safe in your inventory. Basically, just don't kick a door without first dropping your entire inventory by using the ':d +' command (which coincidentally looks like an emoticon that lost a tooth : )), get higher piety as soon as possible for the 'luck' intrinsics, and don't take books into areas you know are highly trapped.

One other use, is to help save your elemental spells for later. Not all spellbooks are created equal, some have internal counters of only 1, that means you may only get one reading of, say, frost bolt before it disappears. You would like to use it against the fire monsters you encounter, but you also want to save it for the monsters in ToEF. Bookcasting it will let you do both. Yes, you may find another random spellbook of frost bolt before you want to do the tower, but that's far from guaranteed. You could do the Rift before the tower, but there are some tough monsters in there that may kill you at a low exp. level. You can also complete the druid quest for one, but you might also kill an out-of-sight cat in there, and that is an extrememly frustrating experience, believe me! : ) Bookcasting keeps you from feeling compelled to go on quests you may not like (I don't).

Another use for bookcasting, is for killing monsters that 'shrugs off bolts'. Specifically Kherab. It is very frustrating to eat up all of your castings of everything trying to kill this guy, and still not get the job done, yeah I've done that too : ). With bookcasting though, you can blast him a bit, teleport to the wilderness, blast, TP, and so on until the job is done. When he's finally dead, you will have ALL of your spellcastings left, and a larger Ma stat for your trouble : )

So bookcasting might be for you if any of the following applies:
You don't like scumming the ID for books.
You don't like doing side quests like druid, or Rift, just for books.
You like having the option of a quick start in the BUGWIL.
You like having many near effortless increases to your Ma stat.
You like being able to control the rate at which your spellcastings deplete.
You like being able to kill monsters that 'shrugs off bolts' without having to worry.

Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong!


[Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/26/2008 at 16:08 (GMT -5) by gut]
AshenPlanet
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3190 days, 23 hours, 40 minutes and 25 seconds ago.
Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 at 11:18 (GMT -5)

The phial uses your pp in a larger chunk than anything else, but casting multiple spells is better for casters for the effectivity gains, for the energy cost used, for the number of creatures killed, etc...
Everything that uses pp trains your mana.
Even special rooms that drain all your pp and unlocking the mana gate which drains all your pp will train your mana.

You seem to like finishing with a low number of turns, and that's cool, but some others like doing the quests.
Even though I've finished the game a gazillion times, I like to try to do every quest that I can and get every artifact that I can depending on alignment/class.
To me, the quests are what separates Adom from the other rogue-likes and makes it fun to me.
Even though I don't rescue the puppy half the time, I like to try.

Using the wilderness to regen uses up fewer turns, but takes a lot of game time.
Similar to you trying to finish with as few turns as possible, I like to try to finish with as little time passed as possible - my record is an Ultimate win in 32 days.
I'm not sure how Adom weights turns vs. time passed in your final score, but I think time passed is a bigger factor.
After finishing the game several times with several classes, it's good to challenge yourself in some way in future games.
The many different ways find a challenge are just a testament to whatever fits your playstyle.

When you get your first 13 levels from killing ~20 bugs, you will, of course, get far fewer books than getting 13 levels from killing 400 monsters during the course of adventuring in the early dungeons (even without ever stepping foot in the id).

" When he's finally dead, you will have ALL of your spellcastings left, and a larger Ma stat for your trouble : )"

And do less damage because of far lower effectivity, and have used more turns, and have far more game time passed, and etc...

For people like barbarians or farmers who'd like to have farsight, invisibility, or teleport in certain areas of the game bookcasting is an invaluable tool.
For wizards or druids who find 10x more books, bookcasting is a novelty.
Nezur
Unregistered user
Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 at 15:16 (GMT -5)

AshenPlanet wrote:
> And do less damage because of far lower effectivity, and have used more
> turns, and have far more game time passed, and etc...

Bookcasting uses up one turn but costs 3000 energy.
Nezur
Unregistered user
Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 at 15:20 (GMT -5)

Oh, I forgot the time you have to spend regenerating power points. Sorry.
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gut
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Painted this one too.


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4910 days, 12 hours, 33 minutes and 39 seconds ago.
Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 at 16:11 (GMT -5)

If you're swimming in spellbooks and have no fear of running out of the spells you like, then there is not much reason to bookcast. I am never swimming in the spellbooks I like, and am always worried about running out of the good ones (like acid bolt) before I REALLY need them. I like bookcasting because it gives me CONTROL of the rate at which my spell knowledge depletes.
Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong!
Darren Grey
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4252 days, 10 hours, 16 minutes and 43 seconds ago.
Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 at 07:10 (GMT -5)

AshenPlanet:
>I'm not sure how Adom weights turns vs. time passed in your final score,
>but I think time passed is a bigger factor.

Quite to the contrary - time passed makes zero difference to the score, but low turns makes an enormous difference once you go below 80k turns.

With regards to the discussion of effectivity, I really think that's a very small thing to regard. Not only does effectivity have a tiny effect on spells in comparison to character level, but you also get extremely diminishing returns on it after a few castings. In general it's not that significant a factor when considering whether to conserve spells or not. Better to have 100 spells at 10d6 damage than 50 spells at 11d6.
Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse."
AshenPlanet
Registered user

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3190 days, 23 hours, 40 minutes and 25 seconds ago.
Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 at 11:39 (GMT -5)

I'll test the time passed effect on score.

On effectivity, wow, I couldn't disaggree more.
From the manual: acid bolt does M{4, (L + E) / 3}d8 + r damage.
Level and effectivity have equal weight in the calculations.
Darren Grey
Registered user

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4252 days, 10 hours, 16 minutes and 43 seconds ago.
Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 at 12:16 (GMT -5)

Getting higher effectivity is very difficult though, unless you really use that spell a *lot*. For most of the game your level will be much higher. At the very start neither will actually count, since it's a min of 4 until (L+E) reaches 15. For ball spells the effectivity counts far less: M{3, L/4 + 2}d9 + L + E for Acid Ball.

As for score, I have already tested to some degree. It's very obvious from the high score table in fact that if there is any bonus from a quick game time victory it is very small. On the other hand you get a 1000 points bonus for every turn below 80k if you close the gate and leave the chain.
Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse."
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gut
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Painted this one too.


Last page view:

4910 days, 12 hours, 33 minutes and 39 seconds ago.
Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 at 15:27 (GMT -5)

That's why the 'limited turns' victories clog up the top of the HoF, while the equaly impressive 'limited days' victories are lost in the shuffle.

Regarding bookcasting, it is funny to note that ~6 months ago I had the NoBookcasting = true option set in my .cfg file. That's how worthless I thought it was. The only thing I could really see that it did, was make it more annoying to read books because of the extra message generated.
After being convinced of its usefulness by reading in the forums, I gave it a few tries. Now I'm a believer : )
Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong!
THC842
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4499 days, 9 hours, 52 minutes and 43 seconds ago.
Posted on Sunday, April 19, 2009 at 00:59 (GMT -5)

wouldnt book casting also help train the learning stat?

[Edited 1 time, last edit on 4/19/2009 at 00:59 (GMT -5) by THC842]
Subconscious
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Adventurer of the Human Mind


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5404 days, 9 hours, 30 minutes and 29 seconds ago.
Posted on Sunday, April 19, 2009 at 08:59 (GMT -5)

Gut already mentioned the best strategy when to keep bookcasting. I always keep important spells like invisibility and teleportation in books. In contrary I read all the books which contain "spammable" spells and almost everything at earlygame. Books are just damn heavy to carry around.
"The white baby dragon equips the small shield." WTF :D
AshenPlanet
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3190 days, 23 hours, 40 minutes and 25 seconds ago.
Posted on Monday, April 20, 2009 at 01:46 (GMT -5)


Bookcasting does not train learning at all, and does a poor job of training mana.

Reading books and casting trains mana far more efficiently as well as training learning.

Really, the only situation where bookcasting is advantageous is when you haven't found the spellbooks.
If you've only found 1 book of teleport, and you're not playing a wizard/necro/priest/druid, then yea, bookcast it.



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