Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / Harry Potter and Religion...
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Re: Tolkien et al doesn't promote magic but HP does You think Tolkien et all do not promote magic because kids can't make magic rings or cauldrons or wardrobes that open to magic lands. Same defense works for HP, IMHO. Kids can't make magic wands with Phoenix feathers, and saying "Petrificus Totalus" will not paralyze somebody. You may have a point with the potions thing, but those recipes will have no magical effect, and I do not even know if all those ingredients exist. I'll have to check. I will agree that if a kid eats wormwood (whatever that is) s/he might get sick. Still, shall we consider Superman and Macbeth to be bad because they encourage kids to put on capes and fly, or mix eyes of newts in with wings of bats? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/31/2002 at 19:52 (GMT -5) by its author] |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Re Lightning I never doubted that Stanists use lightning bolts to represent power, but I see no record of them tatooing it on their heads. I still believe that this is a case of people grabbing the same symbol for different reasons. Fighter planes use lighting symbols to show the planes are powerful; Satanists use lightning to claim their cult is powerful; HP has a lightning scar pecause of the powerful battle he survived. Read the books. His mother's love was able to protect him from the evil spells of Voldermort. The evil spell was reflected back at Voldermort; HP did not absorb Voldermort's power. The scar came through because even with his mother's protection, some of the spell struck him. Read the books II: Voldermort is referred to as "He who should not be named" because people are afraid of drawing his attention. Again, V. is the bad guy. Gandalf rebukes Frodo for mentioning Sauron's name, as well. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/31/2002 at 19:44 (GMT -5) by its author] |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
P.S. Don't worry about ranting. This is enjoyable. P.P.S. I usually do count blank lines, but that's just me. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/31/2002 at 19:50 (GMT -5) by its author] |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7833 days, 7 hours, 9 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Guinea: Personally, I am exceptionally wary of those who willfully use that number (on a side note, WAAAAY off topic of Harry Potter, several Daffy Duck cartoons use that number as well). Yes, a lot of thing are coincidence... but with some time, I'll get some specifics... My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7833 days, 7 hours, 9 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Re: Christian standpoint on false gods... Well, yeah, from a Christian standpoint (not a liberal one, though). 1st commandment, and the (mentioned somewhere else, in one of these three religious threads) "Don't ask what the nation did before you, so you can go and say let's worship the way they did" passage in the Bible. (Forgive my absentmindedness, but I can't seem to remember where it was in the Bible either, but I -KNOW- I posted it somewhere... ). re: wicca=satanism. This is the politically incorrect part of the Bible. "If it's not of God it's of this world" (I posted it earlier... the lack of references is due to a bad headache... trying to keep researching [and large words] to a minimum tonight...). Nutshelled, if it doesn't make God happy, it makes Him sad. Worshipping Him makes Him happy, worshipping anything else makes Him sad... ie. wicca=buddism=new age=islam=athiesm=scientologists=satanism... all with the same end result. (Islam is another thread to be dealt with later, and those who say the Christian God and Islamic Allah are the same are... well... mislead). Having known a few witches, and learned as one many years ago, yes, some do, usually not with prayers, but with candle/ritual magic, or speaking to the spirits, asking them to do their will (A good understanding is Phenominon with John Travolta... the shrink asks how he uses telekinesis. JT replied that he "asks" the pencil to move and it does... same concept). Some satanism uses the same rituals used in wicca. (Speaking having learned some as well, regrettably) However, satanism encourages bloodletting, as opposed to the use of the melted wax of wiccan candle magic. My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7833 days, 7 hours, 9 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
With the wands, sure, they can't be made with a Phoenix feather and a unicorn hair... but the use of natural items are used in a similar way among wiccans... Those particular words do nothing... but words (usually said in reversed latin), symbols, and motions combined are used among satanic spells. As for eating wormwood, sick, probably, but more likely, hallucinate. But it is equally dangerous to wear a cape and try to fly (however that is countered by the fact Superman is an alien, not a human), and few kids actually read Shakespeare and understand it. My point here, is that Harry is taught to mix a hallucinagen with a folk cure-all, to get a narcotic. My signature is umop apisdn. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/31/2002 at 23:01 (GMT -5) by DarkWolf] |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7833 days, 7 hours, 9 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
For the time being, I retract my statement about the lightning bolt until I can find a picture of what you ask. (And you know, there's bound to be one out there somewhere... ^_^) As for Gandalf and Frodo, like I said, it's been WAAY too long since I've read any Tolkien (and to be honest, I've only read a couple books, Hobbit, Two Towers, maybe one more)... so I'll take your word on it ^_^. My signature is umop apisdn. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/31/2002 at 23:05 (GMT -5) by DarkWolf] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 13 hours, 40 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
Re: Wicca = Satanism You have not shown at all why a wiccan would consider her/himself a satanist, and therefore mix the number 666 with a wiccan holiday. All you seem to claim is that you consider them on the same level, even if they use different rituals. Remember, you were trying to show that Harry potter has Satanic overtones, so you said the fact that the release was 18 days from a wiccan holiday showed that. 18 had significance to you because you could pull out 3 and 6, thus making 666. (My counter claim that one can twist almost any date into 3's and 6's from any other date has fallen by the wayside) |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 13 hours, 40 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
Re: Harry Potter is teaching kids to make hallucinogens I should always check my (and other people's) facts. I'm afraid that your facts are in error. Wormwood in and of itself is not halucinogenic, even mildly. It has to be distilled considerably to become absynthe. Similarly, sugar can be fermented and distilled into rum. HP tells nothing about distilling nor absynthe. Undistilled wormwood, which Snape describes (Brewing is not distilling) would simply be a bitter tasting drink. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7833 days, 7 hours, 9 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Okee, I'm not saying a Wiccan would call him/herself a Satanist. That would be like me calling myself a (insert other religion in here). But it is that they are as similiar as say a Baptist and an Episcopalian (both Christians but with differing detail beliefs). 1.)Witch Rede "Do as thou wilt, yet harm none"; Satanic Thelema "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law; love is the law, love under will"; 2.)The duality of the pentagram (5-pointed encircled star), upwards representing man, inverted representing the goat head of Mendes; 3.) "Another common belief held by most pagans is that all life is sacred and that all are equal; plant, animal, and man." http://earthspirits.org/articles/faqpagan.htm "Satanism holds that man is part of nature, an animal whose behaviour is genetically based" http://www.satanservice.org/theory/osvintro.txt 4.)"Wicca's roots are deep in ancient fertility religions, and the masculine God was often depicted as a goat or stag." http://www.angelfire.com/nv/scharff/wicca.html "The horned god is the male principle of the creative force, perhaps best known in his manifestation as the mythical Greek god, Pan" http://cana.userworld.com/cana_wicca.html "The goat is an individualist rather than herd-like. Even Christianity recognises the symbolism, with man separated into "goats" on the left, & Christian sheep on the right. It's also Pan, the half-man, half-animal god" http://www.satanservice.org/theory/osvintro.txt If need be, perhaps later I might look up more similiarities. I am also only comparing "White Magic" wicca, as opposed to Black Magic witchcraft (but they're both the same AFAIC). Hmmm.. well, I learned something new today... infusing is to add, distill is to remove. hm. okee, then. I withdraw my statement about Wormwood. My signature is umop apisdn. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 13 hours, 40 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
DW: I honestly do not know much about Satanism. It is one of the few religions I have never studied -- Priumarily because I do not take it seriously; I think that they are all a bunch of posers -- but remember, we are discussing Harry Potter, here. I thought your belief was that the publishing company is using HP to lead people to Satanism with hidden messages. Your evidence was twisting the number 18 into 666, and then finding an 18 using a wiccan holiday and a date of the book's release. If the author, or publishing company was wiccan, why use a satanic number. If Satanic, why use a wiccan holiday? P.S. What happenned to 20 lines? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/3/2002 at 10:32 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7833 days, 7 hours, 9 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Never had I mentioned that the publishing company, or the author, was intentionally and purposefully leading people into Satanism. What I am saying is, though, is that the way the books have been.. *half-giggle* crafted... leads people away from God, and toward Satan. I feel that it was written purely to entertain, but entertainment leads to curiousity ("Hey! I like this book, I want to read more books about it!"), which goes to learning ("I wonder if this stuff is real.../Where did the author get his/her ideas from?"), which goes to belief and action upon it, if the want is strong enough (in taking in the Ronald McDonald analogy earlier, a kid reads enough books about clowns, idolizes Ronald McDonald, learns/watches about the circus, learns about Clown College, and may decide to become a Clown as an adult). I'm really trying with the 20 line thing, really. My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7833 days, 7 hours, 9 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
I retract my statement on "June 18". It was an odd coincidince. However, the only proof I have remaining about it is that since Satanism (in of itself) has no holy days, excepting the persons own birthday, Wiccans don't celebrate Satanic festivals (obviously), some Satanists do celebrate the eight Wiccan Festivals. Anyways, I personally don't feel that it was *intended* to have Satanic undertones, but it ended up happening that way. My signature is umop apisdn. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 13 hours, 40 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
I've been half-giggling myself. Only half, because I had heard that some libraries had banned Harry Potter. I think it more likely that such actions will teach kids that censorship is okay than that Harry Potter will lead kids to Satanism. Heck, I don't even want the Gor books banned even though I think those books do teach mysogeny . . . I would not be averse to the Gor books being kept out of the "Young Adult" section where most fantasy winds up. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3758 days, 4 hours, 3 minutes and 13 seconds ago. |
Uggghhh! I leave for a couple of months, and the ever-present Harry Potter debate comes up yet again! Is this my fate or something?! FYI, for those of you who don't know, I'm a Christian. I've read Harry Potter (all of the books), and also two books and several articles written against the series. I'm more familiar than most Christians with mythology, paganism, and Wicca (i.e., I've read more than just the anti-(insert religion here) propaganda). Harry Potter's magic is fairy-tale magic. Nothing more. It's not any more dangerous than reading Cinderella to your kids as a bedtime story. Why? Well, let's put it this way: For religions or people groups which use magic, believe in spirits, etc., whether they be African tribal religions or American new-age beliefs, magic almost always represents power. Power over people, over animals, nature... whatever. The point is that if Harry Potter derived his actual power from magic, then I'd be worried. The magic in Harry Potter isn't at all the magic of today. I've talked to people who believe in paganism (for example) and they literally laughed out loud when I suggested such a thing. As for symbols--such as alchemy, the lightning bolt, the Philosopher's Stone, and numerology: These are all present in the books, and I don't deny it. If I were a writer, I would put them there myself. Why? Because symbols like these are a way to communicate to the reader things that would take a long time to explain otherwise. Had you read many "classic" books (written before 1920 or so), you'd find they're filled with symbolism, especially Greek mythology. Does that make the "classics" bad, too? "The ends justify the means"? Hardly. Almost every time Harry breaks a rule, he does it because of life-or-death necessity. If there's a burning building with a locked door, you break a window to get people out--simple as that. No one in his right mind would charge you with vandalism. For the few times that they do break the rules, they're punished--for example, Ron gets a public dressing-down from his mom for using the family car to rescue Harry from his foster parents. Then there's also the problem of having realistic characters: Harry has to break a few rules in order to appeal to the normal reader. If he were a perfect boy who always obeyed the rules, he'd cease to be realistic. DarkWolf, you mentioned a quote from Quirrel, "There is no evil, only power"... You're quoting Quirrel correctly, and you've explained his intent correctly. There's one thing that has been overlooked, though: Quirrel (really Voldemort) is the villain! He and his philosophy are what Harry and friends are fighting against--and encouraging readers to fight against. Oh, sure, he can cast a few spells--but that isn't the appeal of Harry Potter. Harry doesn't get his true power from magic. The power Harry has comes from the love of his parents, who sacrificed themselves for him. It comes from his close friendship with Ron and Hermione. And it comes from his own courage to stand up against evil. Those are good things, and they're patently Christian values. They're good things to teach any kid. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7833 days, 7 hours, 9 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Forgive my lack of posts here recently, but some of my family is out to visit. Iridia: "And it comes from his own courage to stand up against evil." Is that a Christian value? Throughout the Bible, I've read to rely on God for courage to stand up against evil, not to rely upon yourself, because although the mind may be strong, the flesh tends to be willing to succumb. I'm glad that you too have explored paganism and mythology. But, what about Satanism? And, please take no offense at this, but, Christians who say Harry Potter is okay seem to overlook two verses in the Bible, Deuteronomy 18:9-13 and 2 Kings 21:6, which call witchcraft evil. My signature is umop apisdn. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3758 days, 4 hours, 3 minutes and 13 seconds ago. |
DarkWolf, Courage itself is definitely a Christian value. Because the Harry Potter series wasn't written by a Christian, Harry's courage doesn't have its source in a relationship with God. He depends mostly on friendships, desperation, and pure chance. Yes, I've learned some things about Satanism. Unfortunately, its practitioners are somewhat non-vocal about their beliefs, so the greater part of what I know was written by those who wrote against Satanism, and needs to be taken with a grain of salt. But from what I know, Satanism (e.g., those who are well aware that they're working with evil spirits, maybe the Devil himself) is, like paganism, based on power. Its serious practitioners (those who aren't just rebellious teens trying to shock parents) are out for power. Just like Voldemort. :) I've read those two verses, and several dozen others, against witchcraft. But here's a distinction: They're all against actually practicing witchcraft--back then, that meant calling up spirits, trying to control or kill people, or to predict the future. There's absolutely nothing against making up stories about something that (like Harry Potter's magic) has different aims, is obviously fantasy, and is (just like the advanced technology of sci-fi stories) a plot device used to tell a story. If you wanted to actually practice witchcraft, those verses would apply. But they don't apply to just telling stories. If you want to ban Harry Potter under that premise, then you'd better censor Macbeth and get rid of Cinderella, too. For that matter, delete all RPGs from your computer, forget about reading anything about fantasy or myth, and forbid your kids from ever thinking about the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, or the Easter bunny! A little extreme? Oh, yeah. But I come from a fundamentalist Christian background, and I've seen it done. It's not pretty. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/14/2002 at 17:02 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7833 days, 7 hours, 9 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Then on your statement, I end my points on HP. I'm glad you've learned somethings about Satanism... but know that there are three types, 1st are the rebellious kids; 2nd are the "mainstream" humanists who are athiests that follow Satanism guidelines; and 3rd are the ones in it for power... And as for the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, and Easter bunny, isn't it worth sparing a child's possible humiliation in the face of older children? My signature is umop apisdn. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3758 days, 4 hours, 3 minutes and 13 seconds ago. |
"the "mainstream" humanists who are athiests that follow Satanism guidelines"--Huh? You'll have to explain yourself... I've no idea what group you're talking about... Yes, if I had kids, I wouldn't tell them about Santa Claus as if he were real. I'd make sure they knew the story, of course. The point I was trying to make is that, if letting kids read about Harry Potter's magic is off-limits, then telling them about Santa Claus (even as a story) is, too. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/15/2002 at 15:19 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7833 days, 7 hours, 9 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
A majority of Satanists aren't in it for parental power, or for the dark power it has to offer, but the teaching of "do whatever you want, without the need to follow anything, as long as it benefits you". My signature is umop apisdn. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3758 days, 4 hours, 3 minutes and 13 seconds ago. |
That's not true satanism. That's humanism. The "official" breed of satanism (if there is such a thing, because it's very fragmented and individual) basically gives you power over others. The purpose of the power, of course, is to, as you say, "do whatever you want", without consequences. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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feilos Unregistered user |
And I thought I wrote a lot...woo! Dark wolf nice opening post! I congratulate you! As for Numerology, it could just be the next science...Numerology? The belief in? Superstitious numeral relations?...I think I should look it up. Anyway I don't think 9/11 was ever predicted by any prophet or indicated in any 'wise-man's books.... It's when events happened do they dig into their tomes and postulate *magic* or ‘divination’ numbers to go along...with the conspiracy, massacre, fall or tragedy. If Nothadamus and the Holy Bible really did predicted or shadowed many things about it…it was all for naught….I think these books are basically artistic poetry…it’s when people really want them become more do they find weird stuff in it.. |
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feilos Unregistered user |
Does anybody like it when a religion like Christianity Demonized other religion? Any idolatry is blantly called Satanist worship?...I think THIS type of chirstian thinking border's genocide and nazi-like characteristics. Stop biting other people's religion...Buddhaism and Hinduism can go along as well as other religions in the world. Have all you heard the story about when priest came to India and wanted people to believe their God and admit that he was holy and brought a message. Do you know what the Indians did, they admitted to his holiness and messages and put him with the other holy figures and gods. |
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123 Unregistered user |
Whatever people think, is right in thier own minds no rights or wrongs having to deal with this subject |
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rootbin Unregistered user |
LOL You really overanalyed a children's book. EVEN if she did lace satanism in such a discreet form as you've shown, does it matter? I don't think any little kid could figure that one out. Much less care if he did. What are you doing on an ADOM board? Live sacrafices? Pagan gods? It's in ADOM... -root |
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feilos Unregistered user |
Hey at least there are people with the same point of view in this forum..I thought I was loosing on my stand... Rootbin and 123 I share your same feelings. |
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C Unregistered user |
123=C I used to use that for fun. Its all in the mind, what we belive in is what happends, if we have doubts in our belief (even subconsously) (I can't care about spelling) it comes true in a diffrent version. What we belive in happends in other words. As for that book I only read 25 pages because I live in a ghetto, (I'm poor!!!) if the kids don't seem to take it that way, than its o.k. Religion is what we ,make it. There are no rights or wrongs, because who(s) made the religeon, or followed through in it are people, so all religeons are correct ("as long as you leave me alone in my ghetto!!!!") The rights and wrongs can only be as advanced as our minds, they can't extent more than that, we can't go farther than our minds. (nivana anyone?) Because people, either created or followed- through in religeons. Who(s) wrote the religeon-books, guided by divine stuff. So it's all in the mind... Some supernatural things happen, don't ask me I'm just a kid. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 11/6/2002 at 17:55 (GMT -5) by its author] |
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C Unregistered user |
one more thing to add to that, remember Christans,other people of diffrent religeons, remember the (for Christans) Bible, a long time ago they killed people because they didn't belive in God. But it says that killing is evil as well... Let fate take care of it. More about the book, kids usually have low Perceptions and don't pay attention to the numbers or characters names. If kids began doing things, well then there can some concern. |
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Chaco the Taco Man Unregistered user |
I read the book, it has nothing to do with the devil, its just a harmless children's book! |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3758 days, 4 hours, 3 minutes and 13 seconds ago. |
What he said. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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