Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / Israeli/Palestinian disaster
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 17 hours, 17 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
I am breaking this out of the Religous beliefs thread. If possible, Please try to keep responses to 20 lines or less. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 17 hours, 17 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
Caladriel wrote: Re: Governments and rebellion I think that any forced control or favoritism of religous beliefs is bad, whether Israeli, Iranian, Holy Roman or Stalinist SOVIET. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/20/2002 at 11:47 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 17 hours, 17 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
Darkwolf wrote: . . . And favoritism, I agree except in one case, the Jews have the RIGHT to the land of Israel because of the covenant God made with Abraham. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/20/2002 at 11:47 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 17 hours, 17 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
Caladriel (aka, Lazy Cal) wrote (Remember, this started in the "Religous Beliefs" thread): If I were a braver man, I would start a thread for an in depth discussion of the morality of the Israeli/Palestinian situation . . . . . . I will direct you to my earlier post to Jan, where I explained why I do not see homosexuality as inherently evil. The same applies here. Discrimination Hurts people for your own benefit. It is not loving others as yourself. Using God's name to help yourself at the expense of others is certainly not putting God first and foremost. Manifest destiny aside, I cannot accept that anybody can be so sure of their beliefs that they have the right to enforce it on others, or discriminate against others simply for not being a part of that religion. IMHO, this applies to all people, including Israel, Iran, India, China and the U.S. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 17 hours, 17 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
DarkWolf wrote: re: Israel/Palestine It is said that we are to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. But that does not mean we must love the sins or the beliefs of our neighbor. If those beliefs could be potentially damaging to another, then either one or the other must be removed. Such as it is with the Palestinians and Israelis. The Palestinians are almost entirely Muslims, whereas Israel is mostly Jews and some Christians, right? Well, we must understand that the conflict is not over land, as it may seem, but rather religion. It is taught among Muslims that Jews and Christians must be beheaded; in the Koran, Surah 47:3-6 teaches "This, because the unbelievers follow falsehood, while the faithful follow the truth from their Lord. Thus God lays down for mankind their rules of conduct. When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly...." Now, two religions (Judaism and Christianity) acknowledge that it is Israel's -right-, by the Torah and the Bible, to have the land it sits upon, as in God's covenant with Abraham. There is no such decree in the Koran, AFAIK, that says Palestinians must be there, however it is the Muslim's right to kill in the name of Jihad, by the Koran. Now, lemme ask one thing, who should be displaced, the one who owns the house, or the one who wants to kill the owner? *I know it's more than 20 lines, but I can't summarize that thought any better* |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 17 hours, 17 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
Caladriel Wrote: DW: Re: Palestinian/Israeli I am sorry that I sound so critical, but it does not sound like you have studied any of these religions you are critisizing. The Koran does not espouse jihads or holy wars. It also specifically tells Muslims not to kill other followers of the Book (ie. Christians and Jews) Also, note that your quotes talk of killing in battle, not instigating battle -- When the Koran was written, the surrounding (idol worshipping) people were trying to wipe the Muslims out. FYI, the Christian percentage of Palestinians is larger than the Christian percentage of Israelis. As for killing, I think both sides are guilty. The Israeli Gov't and military and the Palestinian Militants are both killing each other. The Israelis hate Palestinians out of fear, the Palestinians hate the Israelis out of despair. The Israelis fear suicide bombers. The Palestinian, in the face of malnutrition and oppression, despair for their future. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 17 hours, 17 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
Darkwolf wrote: re: Crusades, etc, etc. You're right that they're all about religious arrogance. But regarding the Israeli/Palestinian thing, let's consider this, in a political sense: The entire REGION is filled with Muslims. Israel is a little haven for Jews and Christians. Is it truly necessary for the Palestinians to have the land the Israelis are on, knowing full well that their want to be there will cause war; but rather that their are neighboring countries that believe in the same religion as the Palestinians, and their introduction will (probably) not cause war. My opinion only, but if I lived in Watts, or Compton, CA (and knowing full well after looking in the mirror that I'm white ^_^) I would relocate myself to AVOID problems, not demand that I stay there because I want to be there. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 17 hours, 17 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
Darkwolf wrote: re: Christian Jewish/Palestinian percentage Do you have an address where you learned that? Or perhaps a book name, or some other reference? |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 17 hours, 17 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
Caladriel wrote: Re Segregation (Compton, etc.) . . . So you think whites should leave "black" areas? Do you then think that blacks should stay out of "white" areas? You are really starting to worry me DW . . . Re:Israel You really need to bone up on your current events. With the exception of Eastern Jerusalem, the Palestinians are no longer trying to get the land on which the Israelis are. It is the other way around: At present, the Israelis are trying to get the land on which the Palestinians are, by increasing the size of the settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. The last peace proposal by the Palestinians left out the Right of Return -- allowing Palestinian refugees to return to their former homes, from which they were driven during the creation of Israel -- Do you know anything about the creation of Israel? Or the United States (eviction of the Native Americans) for that matter? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/20/2002 at 12:00 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 17 hours, 17 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
Caladriel wrote: re: Christian Jewish/Palestinian percentage You should have written Christian Israeli/Palestinian percentage (Jewish and Israeli are not synonymous) Do the percentages really matter? Is my right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness dependant on being in the majority? I learned it from the BBC a few years ago when I lived in London: Israeli=~2%, Palestinian = ~13% worldwide, [~5% in Israel/Territories,] as I recall. Quick search on the web gave the Israeli %: http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/rihand/Israel.html but it is even more out of date than my info, and I haven't researched the site's validity. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/20/2002 at 12:04 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Guinea Registered user tWo-HeAdEd cHaOs WeAsEl Last page view: 6970 days, 16 hours, 34 minutes and 21 seconds ago. |
About the conflict in Israel: I wonder about one thing: why the USA won't bomb Israel? 1) They bombed Yugoslavia, because they THOUGHT that Serbs (or Serbians? not sure how to write it) are killing Albanians in Kosovo. NO proofs though, now there are leaks that those graves of murdered Albanians could be fake. Many innocent people died during the bombing of Belgrad (including the Chinese embassy), and that all for nothing? 2) They bombed Afganistan, because they THOUGHT Osama was hiding there, and they THOUGHT he arranged the assault on WTC. 3) They attacked Iraq once, and they want to do it again, because they THINK that Saddam has biological weapons. So why not Israel? It's SURE there are fights, innocent people die every day, bombs explode in crowded places, the whole country is ruined. In my opinion the USA should bomb the Israel army, and the Palestinian terrorist HQs and partisants as well. It would hurry up the peace negotiations A LOT. (sorry if I misspelled some nationalities) |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
:-) Not that I always agree with my trigger happy nation, but . . . 1) The Serbs were eliminating the Croats, Albanians and Muslims in a particularly brutal fashion. I have no more complaint about that intervention than of our intervention against the Nazis. If you can direct me to an article that disproves the existance of the rape camps, you would bring much peace to my mind. 2) They had rather ample evidence against AlQaida, by tracing back from the hijackers. On an aside, I've been convinced of Al Qaida's guilt by the videos that Al Qaida released. 3) The original attack (on paper) was in direct defence of Kuwait, not chemical/nuclear weapons. I'm afraid I agree with your critism, now, though -- particularly if inspectors are allowed back in. Heck, I'm all for the world deciding that both the Israeli Gov't and any Palestinian involved with the Militants are incompetent and unfit to rule. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/20/2002 at 16:11 (GMT -5) by its author] |
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Jan Erik Administrator Last page view: 2 days, 2 hours, 39 minutes and 13 seconds ago. |
Why the US doesn't bomb Isreal? You mean desides the fact that they are allies, that Isrel have Nuclear weapons AND the most powerfull airforce in the whole region (curtesy of the US), and the fact that Israel is a huge trading partner to the US? Well Israel is viewed as a democracy who do what they can to fight terrorists. They get a bit "heavy handed" at times, but unless they start sending in death squads (openly) I doubht the US will react. And if puch come to shove then Israel will just play the holocost card and yet again remind everyone how horrible they have been treated thoughout history... There will be protests in the streets and everyone who speak out against Isrel is labeled as Nazies or anti-semetic(sp?). Basicaly it would be political suicide... So bombing is most likely out of the quesetion. A FAR more effective appriact would be to simply (threaten to) cut off the money supply. The Israeli army is pretty much beeng maintained and payed by US military aid... Unfortunatley with the whole "War on terrorism" thing gong on the exact opposite is happening... And just for the record I'm not anti-Israeli in any way, but I realy don't think there will be much peace down there untill they stop "executing" suspected terrorist leaders by in airstrikes in populated areas. That's just not the way to make the Palestinians feel any less opressed... Jan Erik Mydland HoF admin |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 17 hours, 17 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
Darkwolf wrote: re: Segregation. I didn't mean to have it sound that way. I used that as an example, and I'm sorry if I offended anyone. Okay, better example. Knowing full well that I am straight, I wouldn't willingly walk into a gay bar. Better? I wouldn't walk into a situation where I could get hurt or taken advantage of. That is what I feel the Palestinians are doing, that they still seek the land the Israelis are on. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 17 hours, 17 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
Darkwolf wrote: re: Israel. What do you think the suicide bombers are fighting for? They want Israel to get out of their lands. When Israel backed out of the west bank, the bombings stopped for a while. Honestly, I don't remember the last peace proposal by the Palestinians, but I remember one that was by Israel, a while back I believe, that they could have, what was it..., like 75% of the land they wanted, and split Jerusalem in half. Arafat refused, and insisted that they get ALL of Jerusalem, and Arafat refused, and the bombings got worse. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 17 hours, 17 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
Re: Segregation I was not offended at all. I was trying to point out the implications of what you wrote. Do you recall what you were thinking when you wrote it? Does that make you think at all of how easily preconceptions can lead to bigotry? IMHO, homophobia is as bad as racial bigotry. You're afraid of being hurt and "taken advantage of" in a gay bar?! Have you ever even talked to a homosexual in a casual environment? Have you been hurt and "taken advantage of" by women in 'straight' bars? (OoC, are you even old enough to legally go into a bar?) [Edited 4 times, last edit on 9/23/2002 at 13:53 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 17 hours, 17 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
Re: Peace Proposals You are correct that there was one time that Arafat spoke against any Israeli presence in any part of Jerusalem, but even his own people thought he was crazy for saying that. The last seriously debated proposal (which was pre-Sharon) broke down over the right of Palestinian refugees to return to their old homes (aka the Right of Return) That request is not part of the latest proposal from the Palestinians. They aren't asking for all of Jerusalem, either, btw. [Edited 3 times, last edit on 9/23/2002 at 13:59 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 17 hours, 17 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
I agree with you about the commoner's desires. They want to get Israel out of the West Bank and Gaza. I am sure that there are some who are so blinded by hatred that they would try to keep attacking, but if Israel pulled out, and the quality of life within the territories improved, I think that the PLA could get enough popular support to reign in the remaining militants. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7832 days, 10 hours, 46 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Re:Segregation. Not only am I able to walk into a bar (however, I have no need or want to, I don't drink and have little need of friends outside of family-friends), but I have a family of my own, and my own children are in school. Regardless as to what words I use, the POINT I'm trying to get across is that I would not willingly walk into an area where I could possibly put myself into danger. Although I would be happy to stroll through Oakland, I would never walk through Compton, although both areas are predominantly black. I have had gay friends, but I would not walk into a gay bar. The point is, the Palestinians are asking for trouble by pressing on with the suicide bombings. Please, ease off the nit-picking of my words, and see the point which I am getting across. My signature is umop apisdn. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 17 hours, 17 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
DW: I did not (and do not) think I was nit-picking. I meant to show how your posts struck me: When you say you would feel in danger in Compton, you don't mention crime rates or anything that I would consider inherently dangerous. Your reasoning is that you are white. It seems to have rolled off your fingertips without a thought. I am still trying to figure out what you are afraid of (in your words, what would be "dangerous") in a Gay bar. Perhaps I am the only one who sees the frightening implications of such statements. BTW, IMHO, prejudice and the "us vs them" mentality has lead to the Mid East situation, so this is indirectly related to this threads topic. (Besides, I am to tired to break this into a "Prejudice" thread) [Edited 3 times, last edit on 9/23/2002 at 23:48 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 17 hours, 17 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
Re: Israel Yes, the militants are asking for trouble with their suicide bombing. Still, I do not see how this differs from the trouble for which the Israeli Gov't is asking by bombing civilian areas, destroying innocent people's homes and blockading (starving) the general palestinian populace. The Militants excuse is that they don't have the overwhelming, sophisticated firepower to wage a conventional war. The Israeli excuse is that the militants are hiding among the populace. And on, and on, and on . . . The Militants are guilty of many evil acts, but if you are implying the Israeli Gov't is innocent of such, or even less guilty, I disagree. Violence is a cycle of which both are guilty, and, therefore, I do not see how it can be used as grounds to favor one side over the other. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3757 days, 7 hours, 40 minutes and 13 seconds ago. |
Israel's in the right, legally. They had the support of the UN when they formed their nation and I don't think any of its neighboring countries should be allowed to carve it up just because it belonged to them before it belonged to Israel--that sort of philosophy is reminiscent of the excuses that Hitler used to take over Sudetenland and Austria, and eventually to help start WWII! Israel's neighbors should just suck it up and deal with the fact that Israel exists. If they perceive a threat, the Israelis are going to fight back, and it isn't going to be pretty. Suicide bombings are a "threat" in anyone's book. At least Israel's not attempting to take over someone else's territory (for now...) Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 17 hours, 17 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
Re: Israel I can't debate whether the U.N. had the right to "Legally" grant Israel that land, save to ask whether it is so black and white and issue. Did the U.S. Gov't have the right to "legally" run the Native Americans off their land, time and time again? I would ask, following your logic, that, if the surrounding nations were wrong to try to carve up Israel in the past, then isn't Israel wrong, in the present? Israel is trying to carve up and take over someone else's territory. The West Bank and Gaza (and Eastern Jerusalem) were never granted them by the U.N. Also, civilian bombings and demolition of people's homes are also considered a "threat" by most people. On an aside, Hitler comparisons cut both ways. Some people defend Israel's actions, citing security needs. Others claim Manifest Destiny. Both of these excuses were used by Hitler. [Edited 4 times, last edit on 9/24/2002 at 14:47 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3757 days, 7 hours, 40 minutes and 13 seconds ago. |
The point isn't whether the UN was right or wrong to grant Israel the land; the point is that there was an agreement to the effect that Israel would have the land. The fact that the agreement exists puts those who want to go against it in the wrong. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
I disagree that it is so black and white, but I won't debate it that strongly. Regardless, as I said before: by your definition, Israel is now in the wrong, since they are the ones trying to take land that was not given to them. Israel is going against the agreement with their settlements. |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Personally, I do not like such political definitions of right and wrong. The extreme nature of the actions taken by the Israeli Gov't/military and the Palestinian Militants literally makes me feel ill. No law or ruling would change that. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3757 days, 7 hours, 40 minutes and 13 seconds ago. |
LOL... yep, I doubt it's that simple, too. But it makes a good starting point. ;) Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Jillian Registered user the High Elven Barbarian Last page view: 7713 days, 20 hours, 40 minutes and 40 seconds ago. |
Well, technically, Israel had violated more UN resolutions than Iraq. Especially when Ariel Sharon took over and started to escalate the settlements. And, let's talk about double(ore more?) standards. U.S. is imposing pressure on Iraq, because U.S. is certain that Iraq might is hiding a handful of nukes and chemical & biological weapons. But then again, it is almost evident that Israel has 100+ nukes, and chemical and biological weapons, which are in no way legal and Israel never declared that they had them. So, why such blatant double standard? And yes. I wouldn't say who's right and who's wrong. No one is innocent or 'right,' and no one is absolutely wrong. But we have to fix our problems together. Like, if Palestinians stop suicide bombing and Israelis cease illegal occupation, that would sort of work. But they will need to compromise and try to walk in the other's shoes. |
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Jan Erik Administrator Last page view: 2 days, 2 hours, 39 minutes and 13 seconds ago. |
I believe Israel alrady had nukes before they signed that "non-polifetation treaty" so they are allowed to keep them, just like the US, and UK, and Russia and France and China etc etc. They have violated a few hundred other UN resolutions though (regarding the vitwdrawal of forces from ocupied territories and seasing the settlement policy and such), but none of those resolutions have had any kind of "or else" part to them like the one they have given to Iraq, so they where little more than "suggestions" (mostly because the US would simply veto any resolutiuon that was to "harsh"). The thing to remember here is that someone have to make the first move toward peace, and let's face it it has to be Isrel. They (ought to) have full controll over theyr millitary and can easily order them to withdraw, whereas no one have complete controll over all the various terrorist organisations. However the current Israeli policy seems to be that as long as there are 1 palestinian who wish to kill Israelis exist then they won't negotiate with the palestinian leadership, and what's the odds of those leaders getting 100% controll over every single person in those areas? Jan Erik Mydland HoF admin |