Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / ADOM and Relationships
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 Hiram Sedai Registered user Token Lackwit Last page view: 7923 days, 16 hours, 15 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
If you were to call up my evil ex wife and ask her why she divorced me, one reason she would give would be ADOM. I started playing years ago and well...do I need to say the game is addicting? I'm blessed with a wonderful girlfriend now who understands my obsession and is kind enough to care about my characters. I guess it helps that I name them after her cats. Who else has had a relationship impacted by this game? |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 36 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
Well, I WOULD be annoyed if I had a husband who played ADOM instead of, you know, getting a job or taking showers... My mother, who's IFB (independent fundamental Baptist) believes that all RPGs, including ADOM, are of the Devil because they involve "witchcraft" (i.e., magic, spellcasting, esp. necromancy). She doesn't get that it's JUST A GAME and I would never in real life create a zombie, or kill a farmer because some old woman told me to. I think she listens to too many TV preachers, personally. (Some of them, I often wonder why some of these preachers have the gall to call themselves Christians while preaching hate... but enough of that.) Mom and I have had many arguments about it, believe me. She doesn't actually know I play ADOM, but she's found me reading fantasy books. I remember a six-day-long fight we had because she discovered I'd checked a Harry Potter book out of the library! IMO, she needs to stop listening to TV preachers and start listening to the Bible and common sense. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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eL Registered user Long lost brother Last page view: 7395 days, 13 hours, 4 minutes and 53 seconds ago. |
now THAT is why religion is disgusting to me. It doesn't let people progress!!! It's very hard to be humble, when you are great. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 36 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
Not all religion... actually, only a small minority of religions... impede progress of any sort. I suppose, if you want to give a name to the religions that do, you'd have to say "fundamentalist". Not "fundamentalist" as in "We try to stay true to the fundamental basis of the religion"--e.g., the religious texts a religion is based on (a perfectly legitimate concern). When I say "fundamentalist" I mean the sorts of people who care about religion more than people... who are willing to hurt anyone to acheive their goals... legalism, thought control, brainwashing... that sort of thing. Religion doesn't impede progress just by its existence but when people abuse it. In the field of science, for example, the majority of today's scientists, and even more of those who laid the foundations of science, believe in God; yet we have the most techonologically advanced society that's ever existed on Earth. Religion didn't hinder them (in some cases, it helped them), and it shouldn't hinder us. Misuse of religion--like of any other good thing, like money or relationships or power--can lead to people whose mental faculties are forcibly stunted... but true religion should enhance logical thinking, common sense, love, trust, and all those other things that help make us make a positive impact on the world. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 13 minutes and 35 seconds ago. |
eL: So you hate all religions because some religions are close-minded . . . That sounds kind of close-minded to me. :-P |
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eL Registered user Long lost brother Last page view: 7395 days, 13 hours, 4 minutes and 53 seconds ago. |
sorry, i meant exactly ones Iridia counted. I was wrong. Anyway, I think all things that don't let humanity progress must be destroyed. Like Baptism. Or racism. It's very hard to be humble, when you are great. |
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eL Registered user Long lost brother Last page view: 7395 days, 13 hours, 4 minutes and 53 seconds ago. |
Hiram, I'dn't (OMG!) be happy if my cat (the one i don't have) would be killed by a "big dog" :)) It's very hard to be humble, when you are great. |
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C Lazy Unregistered user |
I feel sorry for you Ir(a), (IRdia) my mom acts the same way... I have to hide that I'm playing adom. PS: I finished Ac's game! PLayed until midnight! (avatar of Law) PPS: HEy I'm nOt that addicted! |
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eL Registered user Long lost brother Last page view: 7395 days, 13 hours, 4 minutes and 53 seconds ago. |
oF CoUrSe YoU ArE nOt... >:-) It's very hard to be humble, when you are great. |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7521 days, 23 hours, 57 minutes and 10 seconds ago. |
Christianity can promote unworthy judgement which I highly disagree with. Magic for example is not good or bad it is just a power among many. Bad judgement hinders progress because it stops us exploring forces that could potentially help our planet. LS |
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eL Registered user Long lost brother Last page view: 7395 days, 13 hours, 4 minutes and 53 seconds ago. |
exactly my point. It's very hard to be humble, when you are great. |
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Ryan Klein Registered user Because I said so is why! Last page view: 1865 days, 19 hours, 40 minutes and 58 seconds ago. |
And how |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7521 days, 23 hours, 57 minutes and 10 seconds ago. |
I was tempted to make yet another thread about magic. It does exist but through fear, man has alomst eradicated it through druid genocide, witch burning and relgion fixing the cork on the whole thing by saying "it's the work of the devil". Tarot cards are one type of magic that has survived which lets one see into the future and foretell events. But again, this has been labelled as evil. There is magic that can be used for dark purposes but what about light magic such as healing? The debate is, why has some religions deemed all forms of magic as work of the devil? LS |
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Ryan Klein Registered user Because I said so is why! Last page view: 1865 days, 19 hours, 40 minutes and 58 seconds ago. |
Actually, tarot has been labeled as bullshit for most of my family. I could be wrong. Mebbe my family's nuts. They're scared of the truth Luke. I'd love to be able to use magic. That'd be sweet. |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7379 days, 17 hours and 50 seconds ago. |
In my opinion: Many people come to religion and see it as a security blanket to explain things that they cannot understand or control. This is an inherently conservative thought and precipitates basicly all of the nagative aspect of it (magic is one of the most obvious cases of things one cannot understand or control). Religion itself is none of these things, it's essence (we hope) is for general moral guidance. Historicaly this is not really true, but I have met many people who look to it in this way, and I find I can see it's good points. What more is any religion than a belief system? Everyone has belief systems, to cast them all down is both stupid and hypocritical. Sometimes I have to look hard for it though... p.s. Back when I was at school I used to stay up to 3am reading or playing computer games (notably a MUD called Medievia). Needless to say this affected my relationship with my parents, but only because of the hour. [Edited 2 times, last edit on 8/16/2003 at 02:59 (GMT -5) by Lamaros] |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7307 days, 2 hours, 51 minutes and 12 seconds ago. |
I think its the super religious people that cause all of these problems. I mean the people who don't do anything for halloween because they think its a "devil worshiping holiday." Same with the people who think harry potter is witchcraft. I am religeous myself (or granted i am not an athiest) a christian. I think that if more people took a look at religion, the more they will find that it is not the average religious person that causes all of the wars (because that seems to be the arguement for everyone) but the super religeous people that do it. The people who run around killing others to please their "god." As Lamaros said, Religion is, for most people, a moral guidance. Generally religious people think that athiests are "bad people" and generally athiests think of religious people as "crazy" or "wishful" when actually neither one is either. As for Tarot cards, they are crap. They cannot predict the future nor tell you what to expect. Neither can religion, or anything else. Its all just a way of getting money. Anyone who wants money for anything (religion, happiness, true love, a great future, eternal life) is bogus. Magic, I beleive, is not the "work of the devil." it is simply a fantasy we would all like to explore. Having the power to teleport or cast fire upon enemies, or simply amaze friends is something we all find as a comfort and a state of mind that we can feel stable. Religion is good for some people. People who never had a good house to live in (not expensive, just filled with love) or had an abusive childhood can find religion as a comfort, as well as something to stand with and fight for. It gives people reason. Though this arguement will never be solved until we each have our day, we shouldnt judge anyone on what their beliefs are. I sounded a lot like a therapist there.... creepy. (: |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 36 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
Well, the way I see it is that God is a possibility that has to be explored. There isn't a people group in the world with some sort of legend about a supreme being, and it would be really kind of stupid not to consider the idea that there might be a God (or gods or a force or whatever). I'm into science, and that means I'm interested in facts. There's a fact about God that can only go one way: The universe had a beginning, obviously. Either that beginning had an intelligent source (God), or it didn't: Either he exists, or he doesn't. Either he (they, she, it) is involved in the world, or he isn't. Those things can only go one way. Sure, you have the right to believe what you want to... but, like in any other topic, it's possible to be wrong about religion. And, like in any other topic, it's absolutely insane to do anything to anyone just for having a different opinion, even if you think they're wrong. That's the difference between the fundamentalist and the normal religious person: While the normal person may think you are wrong and try to convince you of their opinions, the fundamentalist will try to force you to believe what they believe. BTW. I'm a Christian... and no, I don't believe Halloween has anything to do with the Devil (unless you're talking about the neighbor's five-year-old dressed up in a red suit)! Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7379 days, 17 hours and 50 seconds ago. |
Actually, sometimes I think it's insane to respect other people's opinions. People can be of the opinion that murder is right, that abuse is natural and many other things. I will never give these opinions respect, and if I see someone excersising them upon other people who don't hold such views I will be quite dismayed. Though I'm being a bit specific here, I assume what you meant is if people try to do 'bad' things to people simply for having a different view. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 36 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
Yep. Thanks for clarifying. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7307 days, 2 hours, 51 minutes and 12 seconds ago. |
yeah... murder is bad. I thought we all would know that. (: |
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 Arancaytar Registered user Pyromancer Last page view: 779 days, 9 hours and 18 minutes ago. |
If someone starts ranting about how fantasy is evil, I just make a mental note to ignore their ravings. Magic is, I would say, deemed evil by religious fundamentalists because it is (or 'would be if it existed') a power that is not reserved for their authorities (priests), and their God, who are in their opinion the only ones allowed to have power and authority. Basically, it just scares the crap out of them. And why is that? Because they believe in it. The Bible says there are miracles, so why shouldn't 'evil' magic exist as well, they think. Fundamentalists who condemn fantasy often say that it is wrong to escape from reality to hide in a fantasy, and they see themselves as being realistic. But the truth is that it is the other way around because the fundamentalist takes fantasy far more serious than an RPG player or a Tolkien fan, while it is nothing more than a form of entertainment and of relieving one's creativity. Move the cursor to the desired position and press [SPACE] when done. Impossible. Suddenly you stand elsewhere. You see an ancient altar of black obsidian. The goblin rockthrower suddenly shouts a prayer to his gods! You are consumed by a roaring column of flame! |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7307 days, 2 hours, 51 minutes and 12 seconds ago. |
Exactly Arancaytar. Magic/Fantasy is only entertainment, a way to explore a new world, and experience things that we cant in the real world. I don't know about anyone else, but i dont go trying to cast any magic spells after reading Harry Potter (ExCePt oN ThUrSdAyS) =P (: |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 36 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
Not quite, though you're in the vicinity of the answer, at least for the fundamentalists I've had to deal with. The fundamentalist mindset: Just as there are good powers in the world (that come from God), there are also evil powers that come from Satan. Though weaker than God and dependent on his permission to exist, Satan and one-third of the angels are evil through their own choice. Any power that comes from Satan is inherently evil and cannot possibly be used for good. (That's the theological part, which I believe is basically true. Sorry for boring you with stuff you probably already know; here comes the screwy part.) In the Old Testament (Torah), the Jews were forbidden from practicing necromancy (not ADOM-style necromancy... communicating with the dead is closer to it), trying to talk to demons to learn the future, having a "familiar spirit" (a demon).. basicall trying to use any sort of power that comes from evil sources. Fundamentalists like my mom will look at those restrictions and say, "Obviously, God prohibits magic. Therefore, if we're to obey him, we must make all efforts not even to THINK about magic." That's the basic fundamentalist mindset: Take a perfectly sensible rule, then take it much further than it's intended to go; then say the second rule is what's actually intended. Repeat the process, steadily getting more and more legalistic each time, until your life revolves around rules. BTW, you might try applying this rule to murder, something we all agree is wrong. "God says murder is wrong, so obviously it must be wrong to even THINK about murder." Take that as far as the fundamentalists want to take their ideas on magic, and here's the results: Murder mysteries would be banned. Pacifism would be enforced. Kids would be forbidden from playing Cops and Robbers. Clue (the board game) would regularly be denounced as demonic and burned in church parking lots (like they did to D&D and Harry Potter stuff). Fundamentalists would try to get discussions of Abraham Lincoln's assassination banned from the history books. Joking that you were going to kill someone would get you sent to the pastor/priest/etc. for an exorcism. Silly, isn't it? But that's what they're saying about fantasy... Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/19/2003 at 14:18 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7307 days, 2 hours, 51 minutes and 12 seconds ago. |
What your saying makes sense. And i can see why someone would think that way. But God prohibits magic, because it's an evil power from Satan, Right? Well, as we all know, people are curious. About everything. As for me, i grew up with Final Fantasy and those types of games. All filled with magic. And i grew up to understand what it was. All it is, is a quick and easy way, to fry those pesky Imps and Ogres. In a game. Which is not real. I knew that i could never sit down and cast Fire unto my annoying teachers when they gave me homework on a friday. Therefor i never tried it. But, back to the curious part. Someone who has been told nothing of "magic" would be curious. Especially if their parents are hiding it from them. Kids almost always grow up to do the exact opposite things their parents do. They grow up to defy them. So if you punish your kids for even mentioning the word 'magic' they will only want to get free of the parents grasp to find out about it. The same thing happens a lot with strict religious parents. They set all of these rules that the kid has known all their life, and then when the kid reaches the prime age of 18 and they are no longer punished by their parents for these things, they do everything that tehy can against their parents rules, because it had built up inside of them. Iridia: "Obviously, God prohibits magic. Therefore, if we're to obey him, we must make all efforts not even to THINK about magic." God, i think, doesn't want use to use evil magic, because it is straying from his path. It gives people trust in something that is not trustworthy. I went to Church last Sunday and the topic was one that fit this well. Although i dont know the exact words, i know it was something like this. It said that if you built your house on sand, it would crumble and fall away, but, if you took that same house, and built it on The Rock, it would stand firm through any storm. Obviously, this is talking about your life. In this case it would be: Do not build your life around magic, for it will crumble and fall away. But build your life around Jesus Christ, and it will stand firm through anything. It makes a lot of sense if you think about it. Of course, i am not quoting Scripture exactly, i just remember it was something like that. Well i think ive made my point here... (: |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
What ever happenned to the 20 line limit? |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 36 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
Whoops! Sorry. Will stick to 20 lines from now on. :) Don't blame Lavos, though; I don't think he was around when we established it. I sure hope you aren't telling me you think I believe God prohibits any use of "good magic". Sure, someone could be deceived into thinking bad was good (and satan is very good at deception)... but there's such a thing as wisdom, and it's something you'd better have if you plan to tangle with any sort of supernatural (or natural, for that matter) power. Yes... many Christian fundamentalist children will rebel when they get away from home. I started rebelling at the age of twelve; I'd check out huge anthologies of fairy tales from the library and read them all, stashing them under my mattress. My sister, age 17, has finished the entire Harry Potter series and has no qualms about it; my youngest sister, 8, hasn't thought about rebellion yet (but she will soon, if I can help it!). Your "house on the rock" analogy makes sense. I'd like to add, though, that building your life around Jesus is probably the thing that will most help you keep away from the bad, dangerous side of any sort of power, magical or not. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/19/2003 at 18:20 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 13 minutes and 35 seconds ago. |
Lavos: I don't know if that parable is so much about magic. I think God wants us to center our lives around It because otherwise, we will hurt ourselves. Any other Idols (Wealth, popularity, even family, etc.) around which we might center our lives eventually fail to meet the task of supporting us. BMB, this is simply one of the natural laws God created for the Universe. If you grab a hot pot handle without protection, you will hurt in you hand. The laws of physics are simply laws by which God defined existence. If you try to face adversity without God at the center of your life, you will hurt in your soul. Simply another way by which existence is defined. With regard to your post on Aug 16 (Religion being good for those in abusive homes, etc) I think the reason you see so many people in desparate circumstance turn to God is because all their other 'idols' have crumbled, but I think God is good (and necessary) for everyone. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/19/2003 at 19:20 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7307 days, 2 hours, 51 minutes and 12 seconds ago. |
Iridia: No, i don't think the use of "good magic" is any different. Sorry for the confusion. And Caladriel: I was just saying what kind of support God gives. God is good, and necessary for everyone. Your right. I was saying that because of the people who are not religious, a lot of them see no good immediate (sp?) connection between religion and the world. Oh, and i guess i wasnt around when you established the 20 line rule. Sorry, now i know. Makes sense too, that post is pretty long. =P (: |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7379 days, 17 hours and 50 seconds ago. |
I'm not a christian, and I never shall be. And I do see some good connections from religion in the world, christianity included. But, I never will argue the topic with anyone who takes the bible literaly though, it's a close-mindedness all of itself. To say "30% of the Angels are evil" and "no good comes from evil" are statements that I find laughable. I had a Religious Education teacher who came up with this brilliant argument to prove God's existance: "Smash a watch to pieces. Put that watch in a glass and leave it there. The watch will never fix itself. Therefor God must exist." I had no respect for this man at all, neither do I have respect for St. Thomas Aquinas' (hope I got that spelling right) Philosophical argument when ends up being: P: The Universe was caused by something. P: There Can only be one first cause. C: God must exist. It's a leap of faith, granted, but it's not one that is in any way absolutly true. To imply that those who do not centre their lives on Jesus (who, historicaly, was just a man, even if he was a good one) or God are lesser in any way is the same kind of close-minded elitism and illogical nonsense for which you deride Fundamentalists. I don't mind you believing what you believe, but anyone who takes the Bible verbatim in any sense is just asking for humiliation. p.s. I seem to remember God smiting people (whole towns) in the Bible... that ain't murder? Our school Reverend was a man who I respected very much. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/19/2003 at 21:54 (GMT -5) by Lamaros] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 36 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
That particular philosophical arguement you're referring to is, as you state it, quite weak. It really doesn't prove a thing about God one way or the other--all it says is that God's existence is possible (even probable); and as a possible First Cause, we can't make a proper study of origins without looking into the idea. God smiting people: Obviously, yes, this has happened. Remember, though: 1. God can do that--he created them; he can destroy them. 2. In each case, the people-group in question had fallen into irredeemable sin. 3. In each case also, though the group was judged as a whole, the individuals were judged on their own merits (People like Rahab and Lot stand out). 4. After Jesus's death, God no longer needs to judge so severely; all the judgment that needed to be given out has already been taken care of by Jesus. I take the Bible verbatim (except for obvious figures of speech) and I have yet to be humiliated by doing so. I do not close my mind... in fact, I would probably be closing it a great deal more than I am now if I refused to think about God at all. Not all those who take the Bible literally are fundamentalists. I do not think that those who are not Christians are in any way lesser than I am; there's nothing special about a Christian--we're no better, no worse. Believing that you're right does not (and should never) mean that you also believe those who disagree are inferior in any way. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 3 times, last edit on 8/19/2003 at 22:21 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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