Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / Spoilers / Christmas contest nearing...
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Molach Registered user Lord of DurisMud Last page view: 5352 days, 11 hours, 20 minutes and 53 seconds ago. |
Okay, christmas is approaching. Before we start that challenge, I'm thinking about some ideas for how it should be done. Obviously, the 1-try only rule will stand. And the character will be started on 24th december, for a decent starting boost. However, I need input on the Random bit. Random is cool for trying out new characters you never tried before, but mabye this time we could play something similar, to see how we play out one specific character type, mabye learn something new, and discuss which approach works better. And the high-point winner(s) (all endings are equivalent, and ultimate are better than regular even if score doesn't say so) could consider themselves either better or luckier players than the rest. And that is something to boast about, eh? Ill give out 3 options for the christmas challenge, what do you guys think about them? a. - First char generated on 24th dec. Take the starsign, make a random character, do the best you can. :This is the RANDOM challenge b. - First char generated on 24th dec. Take the starsign, select (s)pecific character. Do random gender, and (*) random race, and (m) merchant class. :Christmas is about giving, and merchants love that. I have not had any success with merchant class yet, and it is considered a hard class to play. Hence the Christmas challenge is born c. - First char generated on 24th dec. Take the starsign, select (s)pecific character. Make a gnome merchant. :Same as before, but everyone will be on equal terms. Gnomes are the little helpers of Santa Claus I imagine. So even more Christmasly-ish. Input? Personally I want a merchant-challenge. And mabye even the gnome one, to better decide who is the best Santas little helper... Post, and state your faviourite challenge. You could vote for 2 of them. Ill count up the results and see. Results: a - 1 b - c - 10 [Edited 1 time, last edit on 11/29/2006 at 17:06 (GMT -5) by Molach] |
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Taz Registered user Registered user Last page view: 5236 days, 8 hours, 23 minutes and 23 seconds ago. |
a - b - c - 2 Taz: A potion of gain attributes (4s) is lying here. Suddenly a stone block hits your head! Something on the ground is smashed to pieces! PeanutGod: Awwww no! How harsh is that! This is where you need the artefact 'mop and bucket'. |
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4360 days, 10 hours, 43 minutes and 21 seconds ago. |
a -- i'm not overinterested in merchants. and it is not even to be specialized in potions and rings. Alchemy makes a difference since you can use it on offensive and knowing healin/cure poison potions in beggining might be life saver. it should be forced to restart until specifical specialization. A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) [Edited 1 time, last edit on 11/27/2006 at 11:03 (GMT -5) by Soirana] |
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Jules Registered user Last page view: 4981 days, 15 hours, 47 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
I recommend that one of us generate a hurthling merchant, post it on a server, allow all to download and the first to finish the game is the winner. As many attempts as you like. Ps whoever generates this, lets have a real wimp to play with. Roll until his stats suck big time. |
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4360 days, 10 hours, 43 minutes and 21 seconds ago. |
hurtlings don;t suck that hard. their have bearable toughness and dexterity. dark elf tortured by parents and also being verry ill in youth would be interesting thing. except for fireball traps. A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) [Edited 1 time, last edit on 11/27/2006 at 11:34 (GMT -5) by Soirana] |
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PeanutGod Registered user Lord of Misery Last page view: 5263 days, 2 hours, 10 minutes and 9 seconds ago. |
I love the sound of the 3rd idea, although merchants aren't exactly my thing. But still, it could be very interesting. The whole idea of the game surely is to learn about all the different classes, so we might as well pick one and all play it. I don't like gnomes, I hate merchants, but I'll play as one because its all good fun. And of course, like you said, it would be good for everyone to play as one, and then compare strategies etc. Of course, the only bad thing would be that we couldn't all specialise in the same thing, to make it totally equal, but they again, since Santa's elves all probably do different jobs, this would be represented :D If not a merchant, I'd definately recommed everyone playing a class that isn't used that often, like farmers or thieves or some such. So in conclusion. I vote (c) Good ideas there though. ----- Ladies and Gentleman, take my advice. Pull down your pants, and slide on the ice. Ladies and Gentleman, take my advice. Pull down your pants, and slide on the ice. |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4450 days, 5 hours, 26 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
I definitely vote c. Gnomes are actually pretty good as merchants since they level up quickly. The difference in specialities doesn't make much difference overall - random luck in the game will affect things much more since so many things can kill a merchant early on (wand merchants tend to be the most powerful at the start in fact if they have some decent bolt ones). Oh, and the save file thing wouldn't work - lots of us use different versions of ADOM. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Cat Lord Lord Registered user Not really Last page view: 5655 days, 22 hours, 27 minutes and 4 seconds ago. |
I said this awhile ago and agree with it. I vote c., but I think some people could be doomed luckwise (the irony is killing me...). Gnomes are fun, and so are merchants. Hurthling would be too easy (easy to find rocks) and if somebody rolled a troll same thing. Luck will determine most of game things. I don't expect to get very far, so I would like the discuss on how to get far as them. Homework is not meant for home! It's a sick verbal coincidence! -My brother |
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Kaos Unregistered user |
Yeah well, i vote that we all go Gnomish Merchants. I reckon ill die before level6 tho. Ive only ever had a merchant up to level 11ish, thanks to club of devastation i found in smc. Heres hoping for some good luck. |
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Noob Unregistered user |
C-2 I think that this could make some interesting new threads and conversations, so heck yeah, C! I know I won't win though...can't even win with Trollish healer on July 2nd!!! |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4450 days, 5 hours, 26 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
Hmm, tactics... Well, birth sign will be random, but some are obviously more useful than others. Candle is good for extra talent and healing, but some others like Cup, Sword, Book and Raven have good advantages too. Talents wise most people will want Alert to start with, and maybe Healthy and Long Stride too. Something excellent for Merchants though are the different gold-increasing talents like Wealthy - you can get massive amounts, which can be handy for buying any nice items in the bandit village. Early quests are probably best avoided - in particular puppy and Kranach are almost insurmountable (though a nice starting wand could make short work of the latter if you're not peppered to death with arrows first). Healing is needed though (thankfully Merchants already start with Herbalism) so you'll want to try to do the carpenter quest as quickly as possible. But not too hastily, since death comes far too easy, and it's best by far to be patient since gnomes will level very quickly. I'd recommend staying on VD1 till you're at least level 6, retreating any time you need to heal. Keep a large store of rations (easy to afford) so that your strength gets trained - drop them if you're in trouble and need to run. Wand merchants shouldn't forget to use what they start with, and potion merchants should also remember about things like poison that can be handy. Pickpocketing will start off very well-trained, but before you have decent defence it can be risky to use. Getting a spear and shield early is important. Finding things like altars and herbs can make a big difference. SMC is a major risk to go through - I'd probably wait till I have teleportation available. Most likely I'll die before then anyway. I'm looking forward to this now. Hurry up Christmas :) (though I probably won't get a chance to actually do it on the day) Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Taz Registered user Registered user Last page view: 5236 days, 8 hours, 23 minutes and 23 seconds ago. |
i'm planning on going straight to the infinite caves to gain a few levels, then getting healing. but yeah, i'll probably just start the character on dec 24th, and not play till i have time. Taz: A potion of gain attributes (4s) is lying here. Suddenly a stone block hits your head! Something on the ground is smashed to pieces! PeanutGod: Awwww no! How harsh is that! This is where you need the artefact 'mop and bucket'. |
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Molach Registered user Lord of DurisMud Last page view: 5352 days, 11 hours, 20 minutes and 53 seconds ago. |
Yeah might as well start planning for the gnomish merchants challenge. I do think the idea is to generate character on 24th and play later - hopefully one has better things to do that day than ADOM. If travelling circumstances make it totally impossible to generate on the day, we might even allow a 1-2 day computer-clock switching thing. Hate to see people deciding to be excused from family visits because "I have this game I just gotta play today, mum...". I guess playing a gnome merchant will be a good way to exercise off all that christmas fat food - running from every other monster... Okay, background info, from guidebook and manual: GNOME -- Gnomes are the smaller cousins of dwarves. They live in rolling hills and wooded valleys. They are great connoisseurs of gems and the best gem carvers known in the whole world. Gnomes are famous for their very black humor and their great magical skills. They are about four feet high and not so stocky as dwarves. They groom their beards very well, although they generally favor short cropped beards. Gnomes are great leather workers and gnomish boots are a quality product every race greatly enjoys (except trolls and maybe hurthlings). Their greatest enemies are the kobolds living in the tunnels below the mountains. They normally attack each other on sight. Gnomes are excellent crossbowmen who prefer to utilize light crossbows for ranged attacks.(Gnomes require only 3/4 the number of missile weapon marks to advance their crossbow skill level relative to other races.) Gnomes train in the following skills: Gemology, Listening, Mining, Pick Pockets, and Ventriloquism. Gnome stats: St Le Wi Dx To Ch Ap Ma Pe 9 11 9 12 11 12 10 14 11 Merchant: 0 +1 +2 +1 0 +3 +1 0 +1 MERCHANT -- Merchants are masters of trade and bartering. They almost all are very wealthy, charming and experts in communication. Each merchant specializes in trading with a certain type of magical items during their apprenticeship. At the beginning of their career, they are equipped with a sample of items to trade with (or use). Merchants are neither well-armed nor well-armored and have to be careful in fights. Should they encounter one of the rare dungeon shops, they will probably make some great deals. Merchants are trained in the following skills: Appraising, Detect Item Status, Gemology, Haggling, Herbalism, Literacy, Metallurgy, Pick Pockets, and Survival. Experienced merchants become true masters of their trade -- being able to sell almost anything to anyone and also being able to haggle for the best prices. At level 6 shop prices for merchants will be lowered by 20%. At level 12 their carrying capacity is doubled. At level 18 shop prices will be lowered by 40%. At level 25 they no longer are affected by any kind of weather. At level 32 shop prices are lowered by 60%. At level 40 they learn to calm monsters by giving away items. At level 50 their carrying capacity is tripled (due to their enormous talent of organization). Finally at that level they also learn a magic spell that allows them to create new items. Merchants always specialize in a certain item: potions, rings, scrolls, or wands. This specialization allows them to identify any item in that category on sight. Merchants have the ability to use thrown gold pieces as effective missiles. Dopplegangers are not able to deflect gold pieces thrown by merchants. This is the only known way to attack dopplegangers with missiles. Heir item: Beautiful leather armor of carrying. Possible crowning gifts: 1. Boots of the Divine Messenger 2. Crown of Leadership 3. Iron Crown of Havlor 4. Shezestriakis 5. Staff of the Wanderer 6. Trusted One My tactics: Well I've never had much luck with them. But the gold-coin throw thing could save your life in the beginning. It is not a trained skill, sadly, it just increases with level. It gets quite decent at level 2, so it should be an almost foolproof way to get to level 6. I would stay extremely careful in the opening game. Getting healing too early is very dangerous, you need HPs to survive Yrrig's attacks. Entering SMC to generate monsters is usually a smart move, but it could be the end if semi-tough monsters are generated next to you. Same with outlaw village - it could easily be fatal. Pros with our character: +Starts with at least 3 talents. (1 + gnome + merchant) +Gets leather armor and gnomish boots +Can throw coins +Low exp to level +Gets a bunch of items dependant on specialization (potions also give alchemy) +Pretty long-lived - no much fear from ghosts +Start out with decent amount of gold +Ventriloquism skill can confuse major enemies +Gemology skill + mining leads to potential for smithing and scumming crystals +Detect item status is nice +Herbalism skill allows you to select healing skill quest Cons: -Generally weak in melee and magic at start -Weak heir gift -Mostly weak/useless class-level skills -Lacks combat skills -No healing skill, so weak in the opening game -No healing skill, so no black druid corpse, torc and book/wand -Mostly useless crowning gifts EDIT: Just made one to see starting items, and he somehow ended up with PV of 8 right off the bat (+5 leather armor, +1 cap, +1 tough skin and +1 ring of protection). So they don't need to be terribly "Kenny" at the start. Gonna kill him off though, don't wanna "spoil" myself here [Edited 1 time, last edit on 11/28/2006 at 11:04 (GMT -5) by Molach] |
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Naiyor Registered user Last page view: 2096 days, 59 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
I vote for C. Sounds like some good christmas fun. |
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Cat Lord Lord Registered user Not really Last page view: 5655 days, 22 hours, 27 minutes and 4 seconds ago. |
I'm probably going to head to small cave for start. I am definately going to go through UD, so I'll try not to kill much, and find down staircase. Crowning gifts aren't really bad. All give nice DV or PV. And precrownings... well, if I get Executor or vanquisher, game will rock. Brings up another thing, if you could, would you smith? Skill isn't hard to get, and actual forge+anvil can be gotten with... some shady dealings... (ventrilo+killing smithy). Yeah, leveling skills (the 6,12,18,etc)really stink. They need to find some nice shops or else, they aren't really good. Also, do we want to start on the 24th or the 25th? It says Christmas, and isn't the 25th Christmas? Or do we start on Christmas Eve? Homework is not meant for home! It's a sick verbal coincidence! -My brother [Edited 1 time, last edit on 11/28/2006 at 17:49 (GMT -5) by Cat Lord Lord] |
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Noob Unregistered user |
Christmas Eve, Cat Lord Lord. Though actually doing the challenge on that day is optional. After all, we're not total freaks that play ADOM all the time, right? Or are we......:) |
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Molach Registered user Lord of DurisMud Last page view: 5352 days, 11 hours, 20 minutes and 53 seconds ago. |
The 24th and 25th thing can be confusing. It all hails back to the old jewish way of counting days. Their day started at 6 p.m. So "christmas" is really from 6 p.m. 24th to 6 p.m. 25th. This also leads to New years eve and new years day (really just one day of old) In England & US christmas is celebrated 25th , in Norway and Germany its 24th. And Biskup is German, so there. Crowning gifts, bah. I want the high-powered stuff. Two gifts would make me cry about wasted time, 2 make me shrug, and 2 would merely be okay enough. And good luck going through UD. Remember, if you die thats it for your Santas little helper...but hten again, finding herbs fast will make a mean little machine. Food, healing, stats. Mabye worth considering. If this wasn't that much of a one-shot deal I would probably do it. But UD can generate real meanies. |
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4360 days, 10 hours, 43 minutes and 21 seconds ago. |
boots are quite nice gift nothing to complain. gives you pralysis and death resistance via good slot. A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) |
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Blacklion Registered user Jellies... BAH! Last page view: 5216 days, 12 hours, 2 minutes and 36 seconds ago. |
C would do it for me. But the problem is, I won't be on computers during christmas. In a way this sounded nice: "I recommend that one of us generate a hurthling merchant, post it on a server, allow all to download and the first to finish the game is the winner. As many attempts as you like. Ps whoever generates this, lets have a real wimp to play with. Roll until his stats suck big time. " As mentioned, the problem in this is that we play different version of adom. However, one could create chars to each version we are playing, but they wouldn't be similar characters, unless 'create-scumming' :P. I think that b and c are too much of a trouble or too limitive for some people; those who are able to create a character on christmas eve get and advantage. But still, they would offer an interesting challenge for the most of us. I recommend that we play "normal" char contest (random race, random class, random sex and so on), and the c). Would that be good? One could take part in both of them, or we could play those as separate, like december contest-( a), random), and christmas contest -c). |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4450 days, 5 hours, 26 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
If you can't create a character on Christmas itself then alter your clock later and make the character so you don't have that disadvantage. Still, it's not actually that big an advantage - in my experience chars born on Creator's Day or Christmas do no better than any others. It's real RNG luck that has a much stronger effect that simply the lucky status. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Molach Registered user Lord of DurisMud Last page view: 5352 days, 11 hours, 20 minutes and 53 seconds ago. |
Not hurthling, but GNOME :) The "normal" RANDOM contest will be at a slightly later time. I would have liked to start 13th of April (friday), but that is a bit too late. Im thinking End of January for the next Random challenge. Since its impossible for us all to play an exact equivalent character via savegame due to different versions played, we will just generate a generic gnome merchant. Starsign and item specialization will vary, but the good players will use what they are given to the best advantage. Like if you start with potions and candle sign, dying to a firetrap first move you make in a dungeon is a strong play. But if you get Scrolls and Unicorn, you should probably shoot for a pit viper trap... We must allow to alter the clock a tiny bit (within the season) as we otherwise could be prosecuted by the BigSanta(tm) corporation for undermining the christmas spirit by encouraging gameplay instead of wild shopping. No I really like christmas myself. So Ill just generate something, play later. |
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The Real J. Registered user The faceless swordsman Last page view: 5824 days, 12 hours, 23 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
I did briefly try a gnomish merchant to see if it is feasible. The coin-throwing actually proved quite effective, at least in the beginning. I also picked "Healthy" as a starting talent to help staying alive until the char got healing (would've been even better with Candle-born char). In VD1 a kobold/skeleton tension room in the second room proved helpful in gaining some levels quickly. Char used ventriloquism on coward to confuse the nearest monster (staying in corridor to prevent more than one at a time getting near) than switched to normal mode and threw coins to kill it. Rinse and repeat. Too bad it didn't work on skeletons. Used covard+ventriloquism to confuse Yrriggs while leading him to Jharod. Had to pray once for healing, though, but managed to do it. So, for a merchant it might be very useful to pick the healthy talent to help surviving until the char gets healing. For a gnome merchant spending one talent for that is not that bad since a GM seems to get 3-5 talents anyway, still leaving some for better ones. Sytytä toiselle tuli ja hän pysyy lämpimänä jonkin aikaa. Sytytä hänet palamaan ja hän pysyy lämpimänä loppuelämänsä. |
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Molach Registered user Lord of DurisMud Last page view: 5352 days, 11 hours, 20 minutes and 53 seconds ago. |
Also remember that VD:4 is a kinda safe place to be. You get quite a few free healings from Jharrod. But VD:7 is quite a bit tougher than the other levels, pretty decently tough monsters could be generated there. When we start the challenge, I would hope that people take note of how they played it out (not story-wise, we discuss tactics). How one lived to level 5 is the first hurdle. Then further development. We'll see how people survived (or not) the first few levels. I got some good ideas how to do this, but how to actually win...hrmph. I hope all agree about a slightly modified scoring system: For normal games, basic scoring apply. Regular win is better than no win, regardless of score. Crowned champions of Order and Balance score lower than one of Chaos. Also, closing gate and then dying is poorer than surviving to leave the chain, regardless of score. Ranking order for regular wins is by TIME, not score. Quicker is better. Ultra wins score higher than regular win, regardless of score (score will usually be lower than regular). Winning battle with Andor is better than dying, but dying is better than regular win. Ultra win order, regardless of score, Avatar of Balance beats avatar of Order, but avatar of Chaos beats Balance. Within this, faster TIME is better. Regular chaos god ending scores highest of all(!) That last bit because the Adom HoF needs more regular chaos gods. And it is in one way tougher, bacause you don't get the trident to beat Andor with. And because it is harder to do, because the after-game message is so "poor" that it is mentally hard to do that ending...if you know what I mean. And also because finding an amulet of life saving is not "hard" it is merely tedious. Open to discussion, of course. And seriously, who thinks we'll see many victories? Hey Andor, catch this coin...arrghh. |
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Kaos Registered user Aijalon Last page view: 6567 days, 8 hours, 26 minutes and 31 seconds ago. |
*Hey Andor, catch this coin...arrghh.* HahhaAHa, I hAd THis imAge iN My heAD alL dAy TODay *< I loSt MysELf >* |
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Thoth Registered user The Scribe Last page view: 6403 days, 23 hours, 22 minutes and 39 seconds ago. |
In everything I have ever read, Santa Claus, and all his helpers, are "Elves". I think having a High/Gray/Dark Elf Merchant would be more appropriate, and would balance out the contest, since by choosing one or the other you get to choose your starting alignment. So I propose the contest rules consist of: ************************************************* 1: All eligible characters must be created on December 24th (Christmas Eve). 2: All eligible characters must be High/Gray/Dark Elf Merchants. 3: One character entry per person. 4: The submitted character with the highest score after dying or winning the game will be the winner of the contest. ************************************************* I think this would work out great for a contest, and it would allow ADOM players to try multiple times before Christmas Eve is over, eventually submitting their best character. :) What do you think? --<>||<>-- [Edited 1 time, last edit on 11/30/2006 at 13:20 (GMT -5) by Thoth] |
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PeanutGod Registered user Lord of Misery Last page view: 5263 days, 2 hours, 10 minutes and 9 seconds ago. |
Elves yes, but I really don't see any of the elves that ADOM has as being the type of 'Xmas' elf that people think of. Xmas elves are tiny little fellows with beards and bright clothing. I'd find it hard top imagine a Dark Elf fitting this description, nor a Grey Elf working for Santa since they would think he is below their status. No, gnomes work just fine I think. The idea of people trying multiple times is also not a good idea (although people probably will.) Surely its all about your first attempt, and the tactics you use. If you keep trying then your're bound to get an awesome character eventually of course, but the idea is to make ONE, and get him to survive. Thats how I see it anyway, but Molach will have to clear it up for us. It's his thing. ----- Ladies and Gentleman, take my advice. Pull down your pants, and slide on the ice. Ladies and Gentleman, take my advice. Pull down your pants, and slide on the ice. |
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SorLac Unregistered user |
you didn;t think some bastard (me) coul create hundred of chars just not to bother with early game? one shot must stay. and elves are good point. still i don't imagine dark elf working for Santa. besides i'm totally missing or you are not alllowede to have trident in backpack while entering chaos gates with sceptre in your hands? faster time: you meant turns or in game days/months. boar hunting springs to mind. |
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Molach Registered user Lord of DurisMud Last page view: 5352 days, 11 hours, 20 minutes and 53 seconds ago. |
Yeah, when I think about elves, but in my mind elves are more like the LoTR elves, noble/wise/powerful/aloof/haughty. Gnomes are the silly buggers that would make toys for children and be happy about it. I think Number of Turns would be what I meant, yes. Less diddling about in ID/gramlins for items is what I think of as faster, and more challenging. Otherwise an early lucky 7lb find will ensure a fast victory. I think. One try is very important. And will stay. That is not discussable. You sit down, and generate the character. And then you get the excitement right there. What starsign? It WILL matter, because you are stuck with it. What item spec? What stats on the starting gear? You gotta plan carefully and the suspense will be with your every move. Miscalculation, bad luck, and you are dead & out. Till next time anyway. Starting game will now be a challenge and a hurdle instead of a usual banzai-hooka-hey-do-or-die-because-if-I-die-I-can-press-the-(g)enerate-key-again type of start. (Usual by me, anyway) Well if one went and got the Trident anyway, that would be just as hard as Ultimate. And yet harder mentally, because you ARE giving up ultimate domination (afterlife) for a miserable death (afterlife) Question: When IS the type of ending determinded? Andor will give different messages when you enter the gate. Either "You are worthy lets fight" with sceptre or "you got _THAT_" with the trident. If first message is generated when you enter (sceptre in hand, trident in bp), and you kill him wielding TRIdent, will you get a Ultimate Chaos, Regular Chaos, or blasted to pieces (because you didn't wield sceptre)? Oh the wonder. I have no doubt I will not see either end of the chaos gate, as my highest merchant mabye reached level 10. Mabye. But then again I never played them much. |
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Cat Lord Lord Registered user Not really Last page view: 5655 days, 22 hours, 27 minutes and 4 seconds ago. |
Heh, I don't think there will be that big of a need for the scoring type. Will be interesting to see if anybody tops level 10. But other then that, I think it will work. I'm gonna try for an ultra ending now as I'm about to beat it again, so this guy could be it for me :-) (almost no chance but...) Homework is not meant for home! It's a sick verbal coincidence! -My brother |
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Thoth Registered user The Scribe Last page view: 6403 days, 23 hours, 22 minutes and 39 seconds ago. |
But Santa Claus is not a Gnome... And as far as insisting it be the first character the player tries, there is no way to confirm that it is their first character anyway. A clean install is all you need. Of course, people could cheat on the December 24th thing, by changing their game clock, but the simpler the better. I still like my idea. :P --<>||<>-- |
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