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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 8041 days, 16 hours, 46 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
Caladriel: You wanted to hear my views on Harry Potter? Okee then. Pull up a chair and get comfy. This'll be a while... Some Christians feel that Harry Potter is enjoyable reading, and even a few encourage it, calling it a good demonstration of Christian morals. I however, feel differently. From what I've learned throughout my life, is that the Harry Potter series of books take from mythologies of various cultures (as in, the stories revolving around false gods [which is in conflict with the 1st commandment, "You shall have no other gods before Me" Exodus 20:3]), promotes witchcraft [which is conflict with Deuteronomy 18:10-18:12 (forgive me if I don't actually type the verses, I'm trying to keep this fairly short)], and encourages un-Christian values, such as revenge. The first thing I would like to look at is the symbolism behind the books. Certainly, many symbols used are straight from medieval European, specifically English and Celtic, culture. Many are also symbolically used within alchemy. But it is the manner in how they are used that promoted anti-Christianity. The most vivid symbol, to me, is the fact that, in the book ...Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone, is that it mentions Mr. Nicholas Flamel, who's birthday last year was his six hundred and sixty fifth. Wouldn't that mean his next birthday would be sixhundred and sixty sixth? That number has NO signifigance in ANY other religion (excepting *maybe* Judaism) or belief system, EXCEPT for Christianity. It is the number of the beast, as mentioned in Revelation 13:18, a symbol of Satan. For what reason would the author give this character this age for any other reason than associating him with Satan? On top of this, this particular character is the only one who has the Sorcerer's stone, which is able to create the "Elixir of Life", which grants the drinker immortality. Does this mean, then, that should a character want a sip of the elixir of life, and become immortal, they should visit a man who's signifigant number, his age, is 666? To me, as a Christian, that sounds like "If you wanna live forever, go see the one with the mark of the beast". Next, the ever-popular lightning bolt on Harry's head... Luke 10:18 reads "And He (Jesus) said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from Heaven like lightning". Lightning has been used in many pagan religious systems, representing many gods, such as Thor (Norse), Zeus (Greek), Saturn (Roman), Cociyo/Cocijo (Zapotec), etc. No athiest would wear a cross, because that means he would be a Christian. No Christian would wear a Thor's Hammer, because that would mean he worships the Norse gods. But, why then, would the author depict Harry with a lightning bolt scar on his forehead? The lightning bolt represents many false gods. Perhaps the author wishes to symbolize that Harry gets his power from these false gods. I mention this because of the location of the scar, on the forehead. In new-age beliefs, from what I've learned, is that there is a... focal point... like a third, invisible, eye in the forehead, which represents power (if there's any new-ager whatnots out there, correct me if I'm wrong). This symbol is in conflict with the Bible in two ways, first is that his power is associated with false gods [in conflict with the 1st commandment, Exodus 20:3, mentioned earlier], and secondly is the position of the scar [mentioned in Revelation 13:16-13:17 and 14:9-14:10]. Now, personally, I don't believe that Harry's scar is THE symbol of Revelation... but hear me out... I believe it was last Halloween that a bookstore (perhaps a chain of them, I can't recall which it was) was selling the latest Harry Potter book for half price to ANYONE who dressed up as either Harry or Hermione to the T. The store was flooded with people. Now, if SO many people are willing to place a mark on their forehead just to get a book for 50% off, think of how many more people would be willing to place a mark on their forehead or their right hand, when the time comes, to be able to buy food for their families, games for their PS2, or gifts for their friends? There is also a part where Harry learns alchemy... Professer Snape explains "I don't think you will really understand the beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses, I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death ... Potter! ... What would I get if I added powered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood?" Now, wormwood is a real plant, and it contains a mind-altering drug called thujone, and from it Absinthe, a hallucinogenic liqueur, can be distilled. Thujone is so potent, that it has been banned by the FDA since 1915. Wormwood is also mentioned in the bible, in Revelation 8:10-8:11. For reference asphodel is used in folk medicines as a sort of "snake oil", used to treat everything from hardened warts to gas problems. Later on, Professor Snape mentions that the two were used to make a powerful sleeping potion. Now, from the description used, "...shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses..." sounds a lot to me like the effects of drugs... doesn't LSD travel through the veins, alters the mind, and makes the senses bow to its whim? Then there is the numerological symbolism behind one of the books releases. The Goblet of fire was released July 8, at midnight. Midnight is also called "The Witching Hour" by some. July 8 is the 18th day (18 divided by 3 = 6, as in 6+6+6) from the wiccan's sabat of Midsummer (one of the 8 wiccan holidays, also called Lughnasadh, after the Celtic god Lugh). Midsummer, among wiccans, celebrates the first grain harvest, and is based upon the Saxon Feast of Bread. [I ask any of you who are wiccans to validate this.] The Bible speaks of Jesus, who is the Bread of Life. To Christians I ask, which bread is better, the Bread of Lugh, or the Bread of Life? In the Bible (specifically, Daniel 7:8, the "little horn" that grew up after 10 other horns), the number 11 represents the Anti-Christ. Now, Harry, Hermione, and Ron are all 11 years old. 11+11+11 represents a sort of Satanic trinity (the Beast, the False Prophet, the Anti-Christ). There are others, especially the constant usage of vivid colors, and the pagan symbolism behind the heraldic shapes, but I wish to keep this as short as possible... Next, the REAL LIFE implications... Now, keep in mind, that this book was focused at children about Harry's age, perhaps 8-13 is the average focus group for these books... and these ages seem to be when the urge to either follow or reject peer pressure is at its peak... wanting to go with or against the flow, if you will... Harry Potter teaches no set values of right and wrong. Professor Quirrel told Harry "There is no good or evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it". Christianity aside, in our society, we DO have concepts of good and evil. People who work with runaways/homeless kids, teachers who care, and the heroes of 9/11 are examples of good... Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahlmer, and Osama bin Laden are icons of evil... even in Harry Potter is to be taken in a sense of "pretend", we cannot ignore the fact that children of that age are very impressionable (parents know this all too well, and those of you who aren't adults, think of when you were about that age... didn't every commercial you see brought about a feeling of "I want that!"?). The concept makes a parents job that much harder, because that line invokes a sense of "There are no lasting consequences for my doing something wrong, maybe just a time-out now, or the loss of a toy for a day, but I can go ahead and do it again tomorrow." And this attitude can carry on into adulthood. Consider those who are repeat criminals of petty crimes, (not the psychologically-cause crimes, such as child-molestation, rape, and murder)... would they still repeat their thievery or defacing other people's property, if they believed that there would be lasting consequences? There is also the perpetual theme of revenge. The Bible states that "Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either" (Luke 6:29). Yet Harry and his friends do not hold this belief. In fact, "Hagrid almost had to drag Harry away from Curses and Countercurses (...) by Vindictus Viridian." Now, the word countercurse means "to curse someone who just cursed you", in the same manner as counterattack means "to attack someone who just attacked you". Even the noted book's author's name even means revenge, Vindictus = vindicate (dictionary.com definition #5 of vindicate is to exact revenge for, to avenge). Revenge is only taught in the Old Testament as a means of justice (an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth), however Jesus recounted that, essentially stating that if someone does you evil, you do him good instead. Encouraging the frowning upon of those who do not choose Harry's way of life... in the books, those who do not use magic are called "Muggles", and are spoken down to, the way a human speaks down to a dog, or a baby. It is making those who do not use magic look insignificant, unimaginative, or even to the point of being... well... stupid. And the media has taken up on this, with one New York Times ad selling audio tapes of HPATSS, saying "Don't be a Muggle! Share a magical listening experience with your family!" There are also instances where Harry and his friends lie, cheat, and break school rules, with no ill consequences. The books are riddled with "The end justifies the means". But how often does this concept actually work in reality, and what kind of impression does this give to young kids? When I was in school, if I went and beat up the school bully who had been terrorizing everyone, I would get the same punishment as the bully. If a parent kills the guy who just killed his kid, the parent would go jail just as long as the guy would have. "The end justifying the means" just doesn't work in real life the way it does in HP. Also, one of the spells used is an Anti-Cheating spell. Is it just me, or does that give the sense that the teachers don't trust their students enough to be honest? Certainly, people have the capability to be honest or to cheat, but forcing an honest person to not cheat seems to push the concept of a lack of right and wrong. Now, for those of you still in school, and try to be honest, would it be fair if the teacher put a large portable wall (ie, cardboard, corkboard, etc) inbetween each of you in the class, essentially saying "I don't trust ANY of you not to cheat, so I'm doing this". Trust is one thing I try to instill into my kids, but it seems within the realm of Harry Potter, trust is nonexistant. Which makes me wonder why Harry has friends, those whom he can trust... Perhaps it is saying that children cannot trust adults, for even Harry's family were a bunch of boring sloths. Statistically, it seems that each time a new Harry Potter book was written, there would be a huge surge in children and teenagers interested in wicca, wanting to learn REAL witchcraft, and in England, a REAL school that teaches REAL witchcraft has opened (forgive me, but it's name has slipped my mind, I'll find it here as soon as possible...). In any case, this is just a short statement (Short? Erm... yeah, right) of what I know about Harry Potter. I also wish to state that I have spent much of my life learning about the occult in general, until I finally became a Christian. My signature is umop apisdn. |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
My goodness. Did you do all this numerizing on your own, or have you been picking it up from discussions? You have many points. |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Re: Because it uses symbolisms from other cultures, it is promoting the gods of those cultures. I think this is a bit of a stretch. Romeo and Juliet is based on a greek myth (Pyramus and Thisbe) Does that mean that Romeo and Juliet (and West Side Story, and all the other stories inspired by Romeo and Juliet) was written to promote a belief in the gods of Olympus? Similarly, Harry Potter may include animals such as Unicorns and items like the philosopher's stone, but this is simply because such fantasy beasts and items are so well known. I do not think that the book is trying to get people to believe in Belanos by references to such popular Celtic mythos. |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Re: Numerology You can convert a third of all numbers to some form of 3. with creativity, you can find some way to put any number: They didn't release it on mid-summer night . . . But they did release it 18 days after mid summer night. Now 18, in and of itself doesn't have any significance . . . but if you break it down to 6+6+6, you wind up with a formula that resembles the number 666 . . . ? Give me a day, and, following your logic, I bet I can come up with some satanic number. December 24th, Christmas Eve, can be seen as 2+4, which equals 6. It occurs 3 days after the Winter Solstice (another Wiccan holiday). 3*6 = 6+6+6. As for being 11 years old, that is the age in England when kids enter the next stage of school. The only thing you come close with, IMHO, is the guy being 665 years old. |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Re: Lightning Bolt on head promoting worship of Thor and or Zeus You will have to come up with some actual references to lightening bolts being branded on the forehead of followers of Zeus and Thor for me to believe this. I think you have confused the chicken for the egg. Lightning is not considered a symbol of power because of the gods with which it is associated. Rather, people associated gods with lightning because lightning is powerful in and of itself. Many race cars and fighter planes have lighting painted on them. Are they also promoting worship of Thor and Zeus, or are they simply saying: "Lightning is powerful; this plane is powerful. I think I will put the two together." |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Re: no good or evil (and Muggles) Quirrel said: "There is no good or evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it" Um, did you read any of the books? Quirrel is the bad guy. By having the bad guy spout some philosophy, the author is trying to state that that philosophy is wrong. I'm certain I could find un christian philosophy spouted by the White Queen in The Chronicles of Narnia, but I don't think C.S.Lewis was promoting such philosophies. I think he had the bad 'guy' say those philosophies to show that they are wrong. The same response goes to your "Muggles" paragraph. The term is used by the not nice people. To show an extreme case, one of the not so nice guys in To Kill a Mockingbird uses "n*gg*r" I don't think Harper Lee was promoting its use. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/30/2002 at 11:32 (GMT -5) by its author] |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Re: Revenge Can you give an actual example in which Harry actually participates in revenge? As with the evil philosophies and the term Muggles, I think that revenge is usually carried out by the bad guys. |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Re: Kids investigating Wicca Can you show me these statistics? Has the magic in Tolkien, C.S. Lewis and Lloyd Alexander lead kids to Wicca? (I used those three examples, because those authors were actually trying to convey their Christian beliefs in their fantasy works) |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 8041 days, 16 hours, 46 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
From what I've just read, (after having never heard of Pyramus and Thisbe, I did a little looking around), Pyramus and Thisbe was a Greek tale of two mortal, human, Babylonian lovers, right? They have no correllation to the gods themselves, and so have no symbolism associated with them. However, to take, say, the story of Hercules (bastard son of Zeus), Theseus (King of Athens, born of Poseidon and Aethra), or Pandora (Zeus gave her the box with all the stuff in the world, and was told to never open it, but she did anyway) would carry great symbolical meaning, because the characters themselves deal with the false gods. It isn't so much as using symbols of other culture, however the fact lies that there are symbols used in Satanic connection (such as the drinking of Unicorn blood, the elixir of life in connection with the number of the beast, etc). Similiarly speaking to the reference above, a wooden box in of itself has no symbolism. A wooden box of masks representing various Greek characters would have little symbolism, however a wooden box that contains the emotions of the world, even if not specifically called Pandora's Box, would symbolically represent Pandora's Box, and by "guilt of association" (for lack of any better term) would also symbolize the mythos that surrounds it. To go one step further, to associate this box with something that is blantantly Satanic (ie an exacting reference in the Bible, or the Satanic Bible), say for instance, it was guarded by... the prince of the air... would associate the Greek mythos with Satanism. To get technical, the afore mentioned Nicholas Flamel was, in actuality, a 14th century alchemist, who died at the age of 116 in 1418, and it was believed he DID create the elixir of life, and could turn mercury into silver, then later into gold, through usage of a philosopher's stone. That is all well and good and whatnot, but here, it is being associated with Satanism (the number of the beast). ------------------------------------------------- No, they released it 18 days before Midsummer night. As for Dec. 24, there is only one instance of the number 6, and with it being 3 days after Winter solstice, that would imply 6+3, not 6*3. As for the 11 year old, deal, I did not know that. But then, explain to me why Ron, Harry, and Hermione are the only ones who are 11? -------------------------------------------------- Regarding the lightning bolt... gimme a little time... I'll get back to you on that one... You got me there... -------------------------------------------------- With the philosophy, you must also understand that there are those who think that the bad guy is the cool one, and seek to be like him. We must be cautious when dealing with philosophy and young children. Consider this, albeit an extreme example as well, the philosophy of one of the worst "bad guys" in real life, Adolf Hitler. Certainly the "good guys" (the US, and the US's Allies) won over the "bad guys", but look at how many people still follow his ideals. For something more literary, a while back, on RealTV, I believe, I saw some guy wielding a katana, believing himself to be a "Highlander". What I'm saying is that powerfully outspoken philosophies and beliefs can be potentially damaging to the recipient, especially those used via the media. ------------------------------------------------- There is the whole theme of Harry wanting revenge on Voldemort for killing his parents, but aside from that... In Goblet of Fire, nutshelled, Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle had been making fun of them. Harry, Ron and George cast spells on them, rendering them unconscious, each of the three bullies looking worse for the wear after Harry's and his friends spells, then kicking, rolling and pushing them into the corridor. Is that a good enough example? -------------------------------------------------- In an interview with Newsweek journalist Malcom Jones, the author mentions "I get letters addressed to Dumbledor[...], and it's not a joke, begging to be let into Hogwarts, and some of them are really sad. Because they want it to be true so badly, they've convinced themselves it's true." For the whole story... go here... http://writersu.s5.com/law/moreharrypotter.html For specific details, (I don't wanna type it, it's too long), go here... http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=306029&in_review_text_id=250010 Re: the Big 3 As far as I know, no. However, Gandalf is protrayed as a wise, experienced person, and the details behind his emergence as a wizard are few and far between (however I haven't read any Tolkien since I was little, so forgive me if my knowledge is scarce about it). C.S. Lewis, the only book I've read of his is the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, and that obviously protrays the Witch as the antagonist. Lloyd Alexander... Same as Tolkien in regards to Math,(arg! I can never spell the character's names right) the girl, the knight (not the one with the red hair, the one with the cool horse), the bard with the harp, the bard who gave the bard the harp (!!), Hen Wen, Gurgi's pouch, or any other character. What I'm getting to, is that the three you mention does not explain the workings of the magic (as per the alchemy lesson mentioned earlier), or vivid details to the results ('You're going out again,' he said. 'No, no, no,' said Hermione. 'No we're not. Why don't you go to bed, Neville?' [lying]...She raised her wand. 'Petrificus Totalus!' she cried, pointing at Neville. Neville's arms snapped to his sides. His legs sprang together. His whole body rigid, he swayed where he stood and then fell flat on his face, stiff as a board....Neville's jaws were jammed together so he couldn't speak. Only his eyes were moving looking at them in horror.") Is this a fair answer to your questions? My signature is umop apisdn. |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Darkwolf: Any chance that you can keep your ideas to 20 lines? It is a pain to read through so much in one go, and then have to respond to 20 aspects from within one post. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/30/2002 at 14:46 (GMT -5) by its author] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 23 hours, 18 minutes and 10 seconds ago. |
Re: Symbolism Actually, the gods are involved in the story. They changed the color of mulberries as a reminder to the houses of Pyramus and Thisbe's blood. Okay, so we only need to be concerned about references to greek myths that involve gods. Are you saying that any such references are trying to promote belief/worship of such gods? Remeber, this will encompass every story inspired by or symbolically referencing Homer's Illiad and Odyssey, Beowulf, Camelot (pre-grail stories) . . . and on and on and on. Name me a story you like, and let's see if I can find a mythological reference . . . Is Thomas Biskup trying to get us to believe in Thor by hiding that "Hammer of the Gods" in ADOM? I think symbolism in modern day storyies that reference myths are not trying to get us to worship or believe in the gods in those myths. Rather, IMHO, they are trying to get us to believe the themes of those stories. eg. Jason and the Argonauts is a tale of betrayal, not about worshipping Hera. Midas is a tale of greed, not how to worship Dionyseus (sp?) [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/30/2002 at 15:12 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 23 hours, 18 minutes and 10 seconds ago. |
Re: Numerology The trap of Numerology is that you can combine the numbers however you want. You say 18 is significat, but only if you view it as 3*6. If I add them, 1 + 8 = 9, which has no such significance. Besides which, the wiccan religion has nothing to do with worship of Satan (and transitively, nothing to do with 666) Wiccan's worship Nature. It is a pagan religion, not Satanic. It is as iff you took a Norse holiday, and applied a number relevant to Greeks. Have you read the Harry Potter books? All the first years are 11 years old. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 23 hours, 18 minutes and 10 seconds ago. |
Re: Philosophies I thought the issue was that Harry Potter was teaching those philosophies. Are you implying that we should never mention such philosophies? To use your example, should we ban every story that involves Nazis? I think people would start to doubt that they existed. That seems more like an attempt to cover up that such evil can occur. Thanks to our knowledge of Nazis, and the abhorance most stories of them convey, we responded much more quickly to the attempted genocide in Bosnia. Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 23 hours, 18 minutes and 10 seconds ago. |
Re: revenge Have you read the Harry Potter books? When does he plot revenge on Voldermort? It is the other way around. Voldermort plots revenge on Harry. Harry just wants to get on with his life. His battles with Voldermort are not for revenge, but, rather, to prevent Voldermort from doing something evil. Ie. to protect innocents. When was Malfoy made unconcsious? Harry and redhead disguised themselves as Crabbe and Doyle. They didn't do it out of revenge, or go outr of their way to hurt Crabbe and Doyle. Rather, they were trying to find out who was petrifying the students. I will concede your point that they break the rules often because they think they know better than the adults (using the forbidden potion to disguise themselves) but there are usually repercussions (Hermione got turned into a cat) Besides, the same can be said of Encycloedia Brown, Nancy Drew, The Hardy Boys and Scooby Doo! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/30/2002 at 16:13 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Guinea Registered user tWo-HeAdEd cHaOs WeAsEl Last page view: 7179 days, 22 hours, 34 minutes and 48 seconds ago. |
Re: Numerology. From Flanel's age we can know that the story about Harry starts in the year 1966! Ms Rowling seems to really like the 6 number. And 9 turned upside down is 6 too. So we have 666 again. That's a bit strange, isn't it? I wonder why didn't notice the 665 age. Probably I've read six hundred and wasn't particularly interested in his exact age. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 23 hours, 18 minutes and 10 seconds ago. |
Re: Statistics That article is impressive. It doesn't convince me that Harry Potter is the source of a rise in interest in Paganism (I'd need more than somebody's say so; I'd have to see their statistics) but I concede that it is evidence in your favour. As for kids writing to Dumbledore: Kids write to Ronald McDonald, try on rings to see if they can turn invisible and check the backs of wardrobes for Narnia. Are you suggesting that anything that captivates a child's imagination and dreams should be forbidden? I do think you are equivocating by allowing Tolkien, Lewis and Alexander to use magic simply because they don't give enough detail.Tolkien has his magic ring and his vial. Lewis has the witch's wand and talking animals. Alexander has his sword and cauldron. (too main only a few) [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/30/2002 at 16:14 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 8041 days, 16 hours, 46 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
I'm sorry about the rants, I didn't know better. ^_^ ( BTW- do spaced lines count in the 20 lines?) Caladriel : Like I mentioned, I hadn't heard about Pyramus and Thisbe before, so forgive my err. True, that many stories include mythological themes. But we must consider that the gods behind the myths were once actually worshipped. (Forgive my bluntness here, but, I don't know who/what/if you worship, but this next line really only applies to Jews and Christians, maybe Muslims, to all others, it is a moot point.) Deuteronomy 12:30-31 reads "beware that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, 'How do these nations serve their gods, that I also may do likewise?'" Perhaps a millennium or two from now, people would consider the "myth" of Osama bin Laden's victory over the tyrannical nation of America a story, not about religious beliefs, but one of self-empowerment or a David vs. Goliath styled story? My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 8041 days, 16 hours, 46 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
I concede my point on numerology, as to the aspect of the release date, until I have something more... concrete. I understand that Wicca, from its point of view, has nothing to do with Satanism. However, from a Christian perspective, Wicca does fall under Satanism. Now, I know that Wiccans belive "Do as thou wilt, yet hurt none", and the threefold reward system. However, three things cause the association. First, the lesser, is that Satanism also deals with the controlling of spirits to do the bidding of the controller. The second, is that Satanism also encourages self-empowerment in the same manner as Wicca, however, the "hurt none" need not apply with Satanism. The third is from the Bible (and as such only applies to those who are Christians) in 1st John 2:15-2:16 "Do not love the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world." (nutshelled, from a Christian perspective, if it doesn't give Glory to God, it is, a least, a smidgeon, Satanic, 'cuz three times in John does it mentions that Satan is the ruler of this world.) My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 8041 days, 16 hours, 46 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
The instance with Nazis... no it shouldn't be banned, for I do agree with you, that if we did, we would be doomed to repeat the past, however, because of the glorification of Hitler's actions, will still are repeating the past regardless, because of such factions such as Neo-Nazi's, the KKK, and Skinheads. And as such, in this manner, the glorification of witchcraft, used in a less-than-Wiccan manner, is getting youth to become more interested with darker aspects of magic. Certainly, much of it is done in fun and is harmless, but in using "harmless" white magic may cause the youth to look for more power... Such as a "harmless" little white lie might cause one to create a bigger lie... My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 8041 days, 16 hours, 46 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
I will admit, that although I have seen enough commercials, read enough reviews, and watched enough snippets on the Wal-Mart TV's (yes, I spend a lot of time at Wal-Mart) to make up what I was under the impression, was nearly the whole book/movie (assuming the movie is true to the book). Apparently there was a lot I had missed, but I will be honest that I have never read the books. I will concede my statement of Harry acting out of revenge, until I have concrete proof. However, regarding Malfoy, my apologies, because I wasn't specific... Fred, George, Ron, Hermione, and Harry perform spells that render Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle unconscious (among other things) on the Hogwarts Express on the way back to Kings Cross at the end of Book 4. That is outside school grounds, albeit on the last day of the term. (reference here: http://www.harrypotterfacts.com/_wander_questions.htm#book2 toward the bottom of the page) I agree to your point about other stories like Nancy Drew, Hardy Boys, and Scooby Doo also breaking the rules abit. But does that make it any more or less right, in that "everyone's (everyone being ND, HB, and SD) doing it"? My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 8041 days, 16 hours, 46 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
Guinea: Text can a vicious foe to me sometimes... are you being sarcastic or honest (honest question, please don't take offense)? My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 8041 days, 16 hours, 46 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
Far be it that a child's imagination be halted... but rather, it should be focused on something that is more meaningful, something that instills good moral values that hold truth, trust, joy (not wishy-washy for-the-time-being happiness, but true joy) honesty, being true to yourself, validity of life, and peace. From what I've read Harry Potter seems to encourage lying, lack of trust, and a constant theme of death and sadness. It is that very lack of morals that has been instilled in this generation... and soon, this generation will be the ones who make the rules, causing even more moral values to break down. My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 8041 days, 16 hours, 46 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
With Tolkien, Lewis, and Alexander, they aren't encouraging kids to use magic. Tolkien: a magic ring, with no explanation as to how or why it works and how a kid can reproduce it, within the means of reality. Lewis: even the Bible has a talking animal (Balaam's donkey is the only animal that talks in the Bible... Numbers 22:21-22:30), however, my forgetfulness (and the passage of nearly 20 years since I've read TL,TW,&TW.) has caused me to forget the details regarding other magic (aside from the obvious wardrobe), including the witch's wand. And Alexander: The cauldron has no mention AFAIK of its creation, nor little definition of its workings. The bauble of Eilonwy (ARG!!!!!) works merely by one with an innocent (pure? I've forgotten already) heart holding it. The sword, what, wasn't it inscribed with something, that made it magical? With Harry Potter, the whole series of books is about TEACHING KIDS to use magic, and there is a lack of responsibility in using their powers, from what I've seen, from Harry and his friends. Lying is far from responsible, yet Hermione does it to gain approval from Harry when they first meet. "Please, Professor McGonagall, they were looking for me... ...Hermione Granger, telling a downright lie to a teacher?" ... "From that moment on, Hermione Granger became their friend." Hatred is also far from a responsible attitude... "'I hate them both,' said Harry, 'Malfoy and Snape'." Something just occured to me... that thing that Prof. Quirell said, about no good or evil... Wiccans also carry that attitude as well, that there are no absolutes, but everything is a shade of grey. Then there is the 3-headed dog. Don't they call it Fluffy? Anyways, isn't that also a description of Cerebus (sp?), the guardian of the River Styx and gateway to Hades? What a nice thing to have as a guard dog, but anyway... My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 8041 days, 16 hours, 46 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
Side notes.... In regards to Prof. Quirell's no good or evil, here's two quotes from two separate books... "Magic itself is neither good nor bad, white or black, it is a neutral force in the same way as electricity is. " (Kate West, The Real Witches Handbook: A Complete Introduction to the Craft, p. 5). "The Witch philosophy of Light and Dark: No duality exists between good and evil. The One Power over all is neither good or bad; it transcends qualitative thought." (Marion Weinstein , Positive Magic, p. 88). And with the lightning bolt, it is used within the symbol of the Church of Satan. http://www.panpipes.com/stickers2a.htm Look at the first sticker. This has a couple lightning bolts on it... including a mention of Anton LaVey's personal sigil. (I didn't stick around to actually look... kinda' like running in the dragon's mouth to get proof that he has teeth...) http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/News35.html Now, regardless as to what other mythologies use lightning, it cannot be denied that the Church of Satan does as well. Just an analogy, but, assuming the lightning bolt ONLY means power, if Voldemort struck Harry with a lightning bolt, causing him to have that scar, does that signify that Harry got his power, not from his parents, but rather Voldemort? I got a question... Doesn't Voldemort's name mean something like "He who must not be named"? At http://www.1-spirit.net/pages/metaphysics/circles/lughnasad_ritual.htm it mentions a Lughnasad ritual, and part of it reads "Invoke the Great Spirit, in all it's aspects, God and Goddess: Nameless one, Eternal, who is found in all things." Anyways, I gotta call it a night. Think about what I've said, and give me some good questions for the morning. My signature is umop apisdn. |
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Guinea Registered user tWo-HeAdEd cHaOs WeAsEl Last page view: 7179 days, 22 hours, 34 minutes and 49 seconds ago. |
DarkWolf: that was not sarcastic. Before I read your opinions about Harry, I thought all those people who say that Harry is satanic are a bit crazy. Now I start to think that they may be right. The only thing that really convinced me was the 665 age. So when I saw that Flamel was an authentic person (shocked!) and you wrote when he died, I wanted to count when the story started. 1418-116+665 was 1967... but then I remembered that Dumbledore said Flamel was 665 at the end of school year. So Harry entered Hogwart in 1966. It may be a coincidence, but there are too many coincidences so far. What do you think? |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Re: Religous references So are you saying that any work that is inspired or includes symbolism referencing Homer's work (or any of the Greek, Norse, Pagan, etc mythology) is bad from a Christian standpoint, because it encourages worship/belief of those gods? I would have to disagree. As I said, I think such references encourage one to hear the theme of those stories. ie. Theseus does not teach us that monsters exist, but that monsters can be beaten. |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Re: Wicca = Satanism As I understood it, Statanism is a worship of Satan. Since Wiccans do not worship Satan, I do not see how this could be satanism, and therefore, I do not see why a wiccan would include 666 as a significant number. Now, whether or not it is herectical from a Christian stand-point, you might have a better argument there. Still, I could see a defence being that the "Nature" spirit they worship is just another name for God. BTW, as I understand it, wiccans do not bind and control spirits with their prayrs any more than we bind and control God with ours. |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Re: Harry Potter promotes bad Philosophies such as might makes right (Parallel was drawn to stories about Nazis) You are a bit off thread. We weren't talking about witchcraft. That thread had parallels drawn to Tolkien et al. The start of this particular thread was that a bad guy in HP said might makes right. You used this as an example of HP promoting bad philosophies. I pointed out that it was a bad guy, so that HP was actually critisizing such a philosophy. Since the bad guy was never glorified (He was actually shown to be somewhat pathetic and nasty) I think my point still stands. |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Re: breaking the rules I'll have to re-read that part of book 4, but shame on you for pulling a quote out of context. You left off the next sentence on that site: A possible answer I received about Hermione's case: "its states that a wizard isn't alowed to use magic outside of school unless under extreme circumstances... this particular moment was extreme enough ...they were in danger. If HP et al. acted because they were in danger, then I do not think it should be considered acting out of revenge. I do not recall this episode, though. My Scooby-doo/Hardy Boys/Encyclopedia brown parallel was meant to ask, should consider those "bad" from a Christian stand point as well? |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Re: Tolkien et al doesn't promote magic but HP does You think Tolkien et all do not promote magic because kids can't make magic rings or cauldrons or wardrobes that open to magic lands. Same defense works for HP, IMHO. Kids can't make magic wands with Phoenix feathers, and saying "Petrificus Totalus" will not paralyze somebody. You may have a point with the potions thing, but those recipes will have no magical effect, and I do not even know if all those ingredients exist. I'll have to check. I will agree that if a kid eats wormwood (whatever that is) s/he might get sick. Still, shall we consider Superman and Macbeth to be bad because they encourage kids to put on capes and fly, or mix eyes of newts in with wings of bats? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/31/2002 at 19:52 (GMT -5) by its author] |
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