Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / Perceptions of Time/Space
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours and 50 minutes ago. |
In Religious Beliefs Jan wrote: Funny to hear a christian ask where something came from if it is supposed to always have existed (no offence intended), seeng as that is the exact same question most people (who are not religious) have regarding God :) It have always existed and hence it didn't come from anywhere. It's hard to wrap your brain around the consept that something having always existed (in one form or another), but the only alternative is that at one point NOTHING existed ANYWHERE and that's even harder to imagine... [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/24/2007 at 10:36 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours and 50 minutes ago. |
Caladriel Wrote: Jan: Time Have you ever read _Flatland_? It is a story about a civilization that exists only in two dimensions: length and width. There's is more to it than that but I was most taken by the thought of a two dimensional existance. If you decided to [represent] time as the third dimension for such a world, the world would take on a 3D shape for us. For example, if a circular creature in this 2D world stayed still, in its perception of existance, for four seconds, to our 3D perception, that four seconds of 2D existance would look like a circular cylinder, 4 inches high. Similarly, if it moved around, following a circular path, we would perceive a corkscrew. A cross section of the resulting sculpture of 2D existance would reveal the state of existance at any point in 2D time (The position of every particle, etc) Now then, from the "perception" or "awareness" of those two dimensional creatures, where did we come from? When did we start? We would be outside the bounds of 2D time. Such terms as begin and end would not be applicable to us. [Edited 3 times, last edit on 9/8/2002 at 22:55 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours and 50 minutes ago. |
In Any other Christians? Jan Wrote: I've never read flatland, though I have seen simmilar "models" beeng used to explain other dimetions (such as time) and our perception (or lack thereof) of these... Though if I where 2 dimentional wouldn't ANY shape look the same? I mean if you look at a 2d drawing from the "outside" you can see the difference between a circle and a person, but if you look along the page as the 2d person on the page would then all he would see is a line (the "side" of the circle") wouldn't he? Or amy I misunderstanding the "mechanics" of this 2D world? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/24/2007 at 10:36 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours and 50 minutes ago. |
Iridia Wrote: :) If you wanna talk Flatland, I can talk Flatland... Yep, anything in Flatland would look like either a point or a line. The author of the book gets out of this by saying that there's a mist that covers Flatland, and inhabitants can tell a shape by the speed with which a shape's sides fade into the mist. It's a little like our distance perception. FYI, in any number of dimensions, the viewpoint of its inhabitants is one dimension less than there are; in Flatland, it's one dimension; for us, it's two dimensions... and so on. |
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Guinea Registered user tWo-HeAdEd cHaOs WeAsEl Last page view: 7179 days, 18 hours, 6 minutes and 38 seconds ago. |
Perception of time... I wonder does God feel the time passing. He is eternal, He knows what happened, what happens and what will happen, so is there any difference for Him in which moment of Time actually is Earth? I don't think so. Anyway if He can be bored, I guess He certainly is. No surprises, no randomness, and everything is absolutely predictable. On the other hand, what is the meaning of life on Earth, if someone up there already knows if we go to heaven or to hell after we die (I don't want to discuss if heaven of hell really exist. We'll all know the answer someday. One day too late I'm afraid but nothing can be done about this :-)) in the very moment we are born (or maybe a lot earlier). Is there any sense in any choice I made, if it is already known what I will choose? What do you think? |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours and 50 minutes ago. |
Actually, a truly 1 dimensional line (the result of looking at the side of a truly 2 dimensional object) would not even be perceived by us. Even the thinnest line you can see still has some width (a second dimension) to your perception. Our 3D eyes simply aren't designed to percieve something that has only one dimension. I assume that flatland eyes are able to perceive something that has only 1 dimension (but would not be able to see a true 0 dimensional "point") A line is the closest approximation we have to that perception. They probably do not even need flatland's mist. After all, we can tell the difference between a sphere and the flat top of a circular cylinder. The amount of focus by each eye, the triangulation between the two eyes and shading due to light give us depth perception. The same would work in Flatland. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours and 50 minutes ago. |
As for how we would see flat land, it depends how you represent flatland time. If time is represented by our time, then we would have to look at Flatlanders from outside their universe, (from "above" which does not exist for them) and we would see shapes moving around on a plane. If a square creature stayed still for 1 second, we would simply see a motionless square for 1 second. However, if we represent 2D time with the 3rd dimension (height) then their entire existance would be seen by us at once. The one second, in 2D time, of that square staying still would look like a cube to us. Any horizontal slice of that cube would be a moment in 2D time of that square creature's existance. I think that the entirety of 2D existance would look like some sort of modern sculpture. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/6/2002 at 11:24 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 9 hours, 12 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
Hey, what an interesting idea... 1. A truly 1-dimensional line cannot be perceived; it's a mathematical concept that can't exist in real life because it has no width or volume. 2. A plane can't exist, either. It has two dimensions, but no thickness; therefore, no reality. 3. A cube might seem real in three dimensions; it has length, width, and height. However, if it has no "length" in the fourth dimension--time--it can't exist. 4. So... Shouldn't there necessarily be a fifth dimension? A sixth? Infinite dimensions?--for the universe to be real at all? (Of course, I could get metaphysical and ask, "What's reality, anyway?". But I won't.) Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours and 50 minutes ago. |
Hmmm, does something need all three dimensions to exist? Take an Isotherm, for example (the border between two bodies of air or water with different temperatures) Better yet, take the border between air and water, or between air and a rock face, or between the vacuum or space and an asteroid. At any point, that border, itself, has no actual thickness (or mass or matter) but it does exist. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours and 50 minutes ago. |
Guinea: Re Time You must have posted while I was typing. What do you think of the model I am trying to describe. Did I make any sense, trying to describe how, to us, the entire existance in 2D time would look like some sort of sculpture? If God exists outside of our time, the way we would exist outside time for a two dimensional creature, wouldn't all moments in our time exist there for God at once? |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours and 50 minutes ago. |
Guinea: What's the point if the outcome is already known Do you mind if I move this into religous beliefs, since this is talking about morals, more so than existance? |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 9 hours, 12 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
Caladriel-- I completely understand the 2d world -> 3D sculpture thing. Just like all of time in our world could be shown as a 4D image. Not that we can see more than a 3D slice of it at a time, but it could. Yes. If you could see all of it at the same time, you'd be ominscient. Which God is. There's a verse someplace (Psalms?... hm.) that says that a minute is like a thousand years to God. Or something like that. "What's the point"? Well, for one thing, the law of cause-and-effect is still in place, and anything you do has an effect. Whether or not that effect actually "already" exists outside time is really immaterial, because you're inside time and what you do has an effect on the future. The point is that the effect wouldn't exist if it didn't have a cause. From your POV, the future doesn't exist yet; you're moving through time. For God, it already does. But from either perspective, you cause things to happen when you do things. God already knows you're going to do something, but that doesn't mean you're not making your own choice. It's just a difference in perspective. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours and 50 minutes ago. |
Actually, we wouldn't be omniscient, yet. We would not actually see the entire sculpture. We would only see one side at a time, and we could not see inside it. Thus we could not really see the position of every particle without taking cross sections, and we would need to take an infinite number of cross sections to see every particle at every point in 2D time. The solution for this is to drop down one more dimension. Rather than examining a 2D world where time is represented by the 3rd dimension, picture a 1D world (a line) where time is represented by the 2nd dimension (Flatland talks about lineland as well) Now, the organisms in line land would be lines and points. A few seconds in 1D time from the perspective of a line organism would look like a ribbon to our 3D sight. Now we can see all of 1D existance at a glance, including the position of every particle at every point in time. P.S. I moved "What's the point" to Religous beliefs. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 9 hours, 12 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
You're right, Caladriel... you have to move up two dimensions. For our 3D world, that would be five spatial dimensions... wow. They just keep on multiplying, don't they? :) Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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feilos Unregistered user |
i don't know where u guys get this info...can u put up a URL link? have you guys taken physics yet? As I see time is only a measurement of change, Man created time to meet each other...from prehistoric man wanting to meet by sunset to businessman wanting to meet each other by 5 'o clock. Time can accelerate only when other forces act on it like a black hole, nuetron star etc...but whoever thought about space and time warp was way over their head like those people back in the early 1900's with laser guns, homemade UFOs, Anti-gravity machine, anti-friction objects...I don't know what's up with 2D, but I know it sucks...kinda like those poster people board....Have u guys read those books about time travel yet? If you were to go back in time say 30 years, would it take into consideration of the galactic move that our gallaxy is in, also the spin of our earth, etc... If you went back 1 sec, it would be in deepspace of about 1 light sec away from earth...I don't think you all know that what you guys are claiming probably only convey to Art, and 2D sprite game do you? |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 9 hours, 12 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
Most of my info comes out of books, sorry... try searching the math and physics section of the library. And a lot of what we're talking about is very real... well, in the theoretical world of math, anyway. That's as real as some of that far-out dimensional stuff gets. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Ryan Klein Registered user Because I said so is why! Last page view: 1865 days, 14 hours, 17 minutes and 23 seconds ago. |
I'm speechless..... I may not know much about religion, but I think that God created Time (I think it was on the second day) and Space (1st day?) BTW I have read most of the Bible. I may not be religiously sound, but I believe in the parts of the Bible that I remember. I haven't seen one in 6 months *( |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours and 50 minutes ago. |
Feilos: My main posts are concepts I came up with on my own, which were inspired originally by a book called Flatland and H.G.Wells' The Time Machine (the book, not the movie) I have added to it with things I have learned over the years. I'm trying to find a way to put these concepts into words. I'm afraid that you are looking at the only URL of which I am aware. The 2D model I am proposing is not like a sprite game (such as SuperMario Brothers) It is more analagous to a top down game (imagine if ADOM was realtime, rather than turn based, and took place on one map rather than having dungeons and towers) [Edited 3 times, last edit on 10/9/2002 at 08:26 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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feilos Unregistered user |
ok, Caladriel, I gotta do more research on that, thanks for clearing up on that. I heard of H. G. Wells, and his stories, it's sci-fi...back in the earily 1900's? anyway I'll check the books out... |
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Lazy Ragnarok Unregistered user |
What I would like to know: 1. God knows everything, right? That means past, present, future. God knows what choices you will make in life, how it will affect yourself and everyone else, and in the end, if you will believe in him. 2. God knows us before we are even born, and where we will go when we die. So why does God create beings who will go right to Hell? He knows their outcome and the choice they will make, since he himself programs it into us. Our whole path is predetermined by God (apparantly), since God creates us all, including our lifeline. When you choose to go right instead of left, that was what you were meant to do, so to speak. So why would God "program" people and put them on this earth who he will only send to hell for all eternity? He knows what will happen, and if they will redeem themselves before they die. I would like to know why he creates doomed people. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 9 hours, 12 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
God created beings who were capable of choosing either good or evil. He did not, however, "program" which they were going to choose. He did know in advance, but there is nothing in a person from the start that forces them to make either choice. Like you and I know the sun is going to rise tomorrow, but we didn't cause it. It's admittedly a bit difficult to understand. But remember that God doesn't live in time. It's a totally different reference frame. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Ragnarok, Iridia: This has a bit more to do with religous beliefs. I'm going to move it over to "Religion and all that Jazz" |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7521 days, 18 hours, 33 minutes and 35 seconds ago. |
"Our whole path is predetermined by God (apparantly), since God creates us all, including our lifeline." This statement is really depressing, if God existed would he really be in charge of shaping our whole lives? What kind of freedom is that? LS |
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 Damon Registered user Last page view: 7946 days, 6 hours, 10 minutes and 57 seconds ago. |
God is more of an abstract form, God doesn't actually take form in this dimension, so in one sense he doesn't exist, but he's with us with our connection with him. God is more a symbol than anything, we could believe him to be anything, from an elephant with 6 arms to a great Greek lord that fires lightening from his fingers. It's what God or symbol represents that gives the form it's existance. God is a symbol of purity and good as with the Devil as curruption and evil. We follow either as we have freedom, even freedom to create our own God and worship him in our own way. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 9 hours, 12 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
Luke-- No, the concept of God does not necessitate his complete control of everything that exists. The Christian concept of God (which is what I believe) states that God allows man free will, and, though he knows in advance what we'll choose, our decisions depend wholly on us. God has the power to control everything but chooses not to; he doesn't want a human race of robots. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours and 50 minutes ago. |
Luke: Re: lifelines Do you mind if I movethis to "Religion and all that Jazz" since it deals more with belief than with our perception of existance. [Edited 2 times, last edit on 10/29/2002 at 19:21 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours and 50 minutes ago. |
Damon: Re: God's Existence Do you mind if I move this to Religion and all that Jazz, since it deals more with our perception of God and what God does, rather than our perception of time and space or what it would be like to exist out side of time and space (and physics, for that matter) |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours and 50 minutes ago. |
In Religion and all that Jazz, Luke wrote: Hmmm, time is an interesting concept. I'm not sure if God is outside of time, something like that is a factor to order events by - I don't really think it's a physical enough aspect to have a inside or outside. Astrophysics says that the big bang created matter, energy and time, so outside the parimeter of the big bangs expansion, time does not exist. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours and 50 minutes ago. |
In Religion and all that Jazz, Caladriel wrote: Luke: ... Thought: We are bound by time and cause&effect. In a sense, you can think of it as an equation or graph, where any point in the graph can only effect points that are ahead/above it along the 'time' axis. However, if something existed outside of the equation, It could place things anywhere within the graph. We can't perceive how things would thus be ordered. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 11/22/2002 at 10:04 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours and 50 minutes ago. |
In Religion and all that Jazz, Luke wrote: Perception of Time/Space talks about dimensions at one point, it would be interesting though to hear some peoples idea of reality. Dimensions are defined through humans since they are the only beings we know that have sufficient reasoning. The 3 dimensions that define shapes though is more relative to those who can visualise, so if the whole human race was blind would these dimensions still exist? The point I'm raising is that dimensions are either real without humans or invented by humans. I believe in a way time is something that humans have invented as they're aware of routines and re-occuring events. But does it really exist? It seems just a convinient factor to order events by, if no events happened and everything was still, would time still be a concept? |
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