Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / ADOM and Relationships
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 36 minutes and 31 seconds ago. |
That particular philosophical arguement you're referring to is, as you state it, quite weak. It really doesn't prove a thing about God one way or the other--all it says is that God's existence is possible (even probable); and as a possible First Cause, we can't make a proper study of origins without looking into the idea. God smiting people: Obviously, yes, this has happened. Remember, though: 1. God can do that--he created them; he can destroy them. 2. In each case, the people-group in question had fallen into irredeemable sin. 3. In each case also, though the group was judged as a whole, the individuals were judged on their own merits (People like Rahab and Lot stand out). 4. After Jesus's death, God no longer needs to judge so severely; all the judgment that needed to be given out has already been taken care of by Jesus. I take the Bible verbatim (except for obvious figures of speech) and I have yet to be humiliated by doing so. I do not close my mind... in fact, I would probably be closing it a great deal more than I am now if I refused to think about God at all. Not all those who take the Bible literally are fundamentalists. I do not think that those who are not Christians are in any way lesser than I am; there's nothing special about a Christian--we're no better, no worse. Believing that you're right does not (and should never) mean that you also believe those who disagree are inferior in any way. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 3 times, last edit on 8/19/2003 at 22:21 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7379 days, 17 hours, 1 minute and 16 seconds ago. |
Hrm. I fail to see how one can base one's life off an.. entity.. which is so blatantly hypocritical. How can you be subjective to your "creations" and yet not permit them the same freedom? It's like saying parents can kill their children, for they created them. I know you'll probably respond by saying it's not them who created them, but God. But that's a weak argument. There is no argument that proves God, if he/she/it exists, must be the first cause from which all others stem. Therefore to suggest that God caused parents (and therefore caused the children) is the same as comparing him to a grandfather, it's only a matter of scale. And how can say you're no better or worse than a murderer, if you beleive murder to be wrong? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/19/2003 at 22:55 (GMT -5) by Lamaros] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 14 minutes and 1 second ago. |
. . . So much for 20 lines. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 14 minutes and 1 second ago. |
Lamaros: Re: Comparative Worth Did you infer I think people who do not have God at the center of their lives are less than people who do? If so, I am afraid you are mistaken. What about my post gave you that impression? |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 14 minutes and 1 second ago. |
Lamaros: Re: Murder Is it murder when a sailor seals a bulk head to keep a submarine from sinking, even if s/he knows not everybody has escaped; or when a family takes a terminally ill relative off life support? I would say no. The sailor or the family know that they are killing, but they also believe it to be necessary, and I think they are correct. With them, they are just using their best judgment, but, if God is truly omniscient, then would It not know when death may/should occur? Iridia: I think your reasoning is a bit too . . . pat. It is as if you are trying to make rules for when death is allowed. How would you know? How do you know they had fallen into irredeemable sin? Perhaps that is incorrect; how do you know that there was not some other reason? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/20/2003 at 10:52 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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C<U> Unregistered user |
???? What? I never said anything about god existing/not (or did I?). Que? Que? (did you mean Cadriel (then I'll feel stupid)) |
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C<U> Unregistered user |
Well, I feel like being on topic; ADOM really hasn't ever caused any problems for me with academic life or just life. My sis makes fun of "moving while typing", my mom doesn't like adom because it has a lot of violence (hey you're just killing letters just like you do in English :) ) my sis is a traitor... OT; God does exist but he doesn't seem to care\have enough time. The human mind doesn't like to be 100% alone, so religion (if there is God) keeps people like dogs on a leash, if people are alone/feel alone they go nuts. God lets everything go on its own free will for everything so if someone is smited it is usualy (MO) in coincedince I'm sure God wouldn't kill something on his own...he lets it kill itself. As for murder; Everything is murder killing plants is murder (everything feels somewhat)... [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/20/2003 at 19:44 (GMT -5) by its author] |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7307 days, 2 hours, 51 minutes and 38 seconds ago. |
Lamaros: "It's like saying parents can kill their children, for they created them. I know you'll probably respond by saying it's not them who created them, but God. But that's a weak argument." That my friend, is where we turn to the Bible. Another good ol' story from church is one about a woman who was accused of comitting adultury (sp?). In that time, it was a crime worth the death penelty. The "officers" of the time said that she was to be stoned (you know what i mean) for her crimes. Jesus came up before the woman, who was now crying on the ground, and asked what had happened. The men yelled to him, saying that they were doing God's "will" by killing this woman. Jesus said many things, (which i cant remember right now) but He finished with "Let he who has not sinned throw the first stone." All of the men knew that they had all sinned, and one by one, they all left. Every person has sinned before, no matter who they are. So who are you to kill someone, when you deserve to be killed yourself? That may sound graphic, but Jesus died for our sins, so why would parents be allowed to kill their children? (: [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/20/2003 at 20:25 (GMT -5) by Lavos] |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7379 days, 17 hours, 1 minute and 16 seconds ago. |
Lavos: I'm sorry, your reply had nothing to do with my comment at all. |
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lavos-notlogged Unregistered user |
Fine, to put it simply, why would parents kill their children? "it's like saying parents can kill their children." Parents are hardly a good comparison to God. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/21/2003 at 00:15 (GMT -5) by its author] |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7379 days, 17 hours, 1 minute and 16 seconds ago. |
The reasoning is irrelevent. And "Parents are hardly a good comparison to God" begs the question. |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7307 days, 2 hours, 51 minutes and 38 seconds ago. |
People have sinned. God has not. Therefor how can you say the two things are alike? (: |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7307 days, 2 hours, 51 minutes and 38 seconds ago. |
I have to ask anyone here, who is an atheist, where they get these ideas that the Bible makes no sense. Have any of you ever read the Bible? Many ...believe in evolution for the simple reason that they think science has proven it to be a `fact' and, therefore, it must be accepted... In recent years, a great many people...having finally been persuaded to make a real examination of the problem of evolution, have become convinced of its fallacy and are now convinced anti-evolutionists." -- Henry Morris, former evolutionist. (: |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7379 days, 17 hours, 1 minute and 16 seconds ago. |
I have indeed read enough of the Bible to support the views I put forward. I'm not an athiest though. If you wanted to describe me in a word I'd be closest to Agnostic, though that's only true to a degree. Now, what I mean by begging the question. We've said: God kills people People kill people And you've said: People have sinned God hasn't sinned There is no link, no argument that has been put forward to back up this claim, except for what you call the Bible. You're saying "God can sin (smite) because he has never sinned", which is really quite silly. I can then say I can sin because at birth I had never sinned. But what's worse is that this argument relies on the statement "God has never sinned because we're told he's never sinned." Which begs the question. I could come up with an argument for the sinless nature of a newborn child which would be much more credible than the one you have put forward. Which, by the pattern of your argument, would then lead to the conclusion that it is more permissable for any person to sin than it is for God. As for your quote, that's a nothing statement. I'll paraphrase: Many ...believe in the theory of evolution... recently...a couple of people have changed their minds. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/21/2003 at 02:55 (GMT -5) by Lamaros] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 14 minutes and 1 second ago. |
Lamaros: Your argument seems to be based on the statement "God has killed, therefore, It has sinned." I think that such a statement only holds if all killing is sinful. Are the sailor or the family in my post sinning because they are killing somebody? I disagree. I think that they are not sinning in those situations. Similarly, because of the situations surrounding such acts, I believe God has never sinned when/if It has chosen to bring about somebody's death. I may not be able to tell you what it is about a situation that would keep such acts from being immoral, but then, I am not Omniscient. I do have some guesses, though. [Edited 2 times, last edit on 8/25/2003 at 11:23 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 14 minutes and 1 second ago. |
P.S. Any chance of keeping responses to 20 lines? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/21/2003 at 10:40 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 14 minutes and 1 second ago. |
Lavos: I think viewing God as a parent is a very good comparison (Well, viewing God as a good, truly loving parent) |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7307 days, 2 hours, 51 minutes and 38 seconds ago. |
i already wrote all of this once, but my computer messed up so im gonna have to do it again... Caladriel: Yes, Veiwing God as a parent is a good comparison, if you not talking about the right to kill your own children. Because im lazy and i dont want to write all of this again im just gonna say this. God has never, in all recorded history, killed anyone just for fun, And without a reason. I do not know either what kind of a situation would make anyone think killing is okay. Everyone thinks differently. One last thing, in that quote Lamaros, you are comparing the words, a great many people (a majority) to a couple of people (2 or 3, or a small percent.) that is not the same, and is not reasonable. I could change what your saying into almost whatever i wanted, in the same way. What you call 'paraphrasing' is changing the facts completely, trying to, in some way, make it seem like it is not true, and rarely happens, which is wrong. (: [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/21/2003 at 15:54 (GMT -5) by Lavos] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 36 minutes and 31 seconds ago. |
I'd have to ask you to discard the idea of God as a parent when dealing with God's judgment on people. It doesn't apply unless you're talking about the time after the life of Jesus. If you want any sort of analogy, let's use the one of God as a king. It's not nearly enough, because God didn't just inherit his power over the world... he has it intrinsically, because he's God. Even more than that, he is intrinsically a higher being than we are. Those times when God judged groups of people are not murder any more than it's murder when the death penalty is carried out. It seems as though you're trying to look at God as though he were human--but he isn't. There's a huge gap between us and him. He's sinless, but we're born sinful; he knows everything, understands everything, can do anything (and please don't ask me if he can make a rock he can't lift; that's just silly). When I say God has the right to do with us what he wants because He's the creator, I mean it not in the way that a parent creates a child, but in the way you might create a robot. That God chooses to let us exercise free will is pretty incredible. That he let us choose sin is even more incredible. And that he took the punishment for that sin, so that we could become his children instead of the objects of his judgment, is the most incredible of all. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/21/2003 at 16:38 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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lavos-notlogged Unregistered user |
A very good point. I dont have time now to say anything, but i wanted to say that. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/21/2003 at 17:12 (GMT -5) by its author] |
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C<U> Unregistered user |
I seriously don't believe God smites people, people say he does but there is always another cause, for example in ADOM while TB is playing to test it, sometimes the char.dies due to the other things, or what he did to to lead it to it's death, something else did it! I'm not saying God controls everything but he must have a good idea, a good idea, maybe sometimes he doesn't even know our choices, or what will happen... Unless he uses his omnipotence a lot. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 14 minutes and 1 second ago. |
I don't see why one shouldn't see God as a parent, even in the Old Testament. A Parent does not have the right to kill his ror her child, but a parent is allowed to take their child to a new neighborhood or country -- Or to check the child into rehab -- The child may view this as the end of the world, but the parent has a greater understanding of why this needs to be. We think Death is the end of the world, but, presumably, if God is omniscient, then It has a much better understanding. BTW, I think the death penalty is murder. Also, IMHO, if I created a sentient robot, I would lose the right to end its existence, because my understanding of existence is so limitted. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 36 minutes and 31 seconds ago. |
(Must... post... more... religion... talk... :P) True, Caladriel. In the Christian worldview, death is not the end of the human soul... Re: Sentient robot God's understanding of existence is NOT limited, though, like ours is. God doesn't control everything--He could, but he doesn't. Many of the consequences we face for the things we do are totally natural consequences: Rob a bank, you go to jail. Jump off a building, and you fall. From what I know, God knows things in advance but often chooses not to change them, even if they're not what he would want. (Have we had this discussion before? I'm getting a sense of deja vu. Again. Dangit... someone start up a good non-religious topic!!) Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 14 minutes and 1 second ago. |
. . . So . . . are you agreeing with me (that is, my last post), or am I missing something? Re: Robot. What I meant is that the fact that God created us, IMHO, does not give It the right to do as It pleases with us. ie. I disagree that because God created us, It has the right to kill us. Rather, I think that because of God's greater knowledge and understanding, It knows when we can or should die. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 14 minutes and 1 second ago. |
Re: Smiting etc. in the Bible I should point out that I do not think that the Bible should always be taken literally. I think that the writers often attributed the natural consequences of their own actions to smotation from God. I believe there are spiritual and physical laws that God laid down on this universe. Breaking these laws leads to a break down of the self, society, etc. ie. The Laws of physics state that you will cut your hand if you choose to thrust it through a window. This is not God reaching down and smiting you for breaking Its "Shards of glass are sharp and will cut skin" law. The cuts are simply a natural consequence. Similarly, if the Israelites turned from God, I do not think that God smote them with the Babylonians or removed Its protection from them. Perhaps they simply no longer had the will or strength to resist the conquering Army due to having some focus other than God at the center of their lives -- Another natural consequence. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/22/2003 at 11:06 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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C<U> Unregistered user |
On the sentient robots... Dude! Have you been watching too much Animatrix or playing too much sim-earth? Yeah, really anything that feels (even grass kids pull out for fun) has sentientment. And why are people trying to make sentient robots? I don't really see anything too helpful except maybe a slight boost to problems (people won't like it) and people will understand consiousness a bit more, but we already have racism and it would just hurt another sentient being. (damn hillbilles in OK!) Anyway they would nearly be 'gods among men' with all those abilites, its just not a good idea, people wouldn't like it. They would need a diffrent set of rights as well (no destruction sentence for them either) and keeping them would be slavery. On the death sentence.... It isn't right because you can't preach to the dead (as they say). Anyway why kill them? Actually death is painless, it's life that's painful, so in a twisted way you are actually *rewarding* them! IMO; It is much more torturous to stay in prison all your life running from the crazy guy in your cell then to die, anyway I heard its much more expensive.. PS: God doesn't kill us!!! We kill ourselves, God is good, not some perverted freak like all of us. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/22/2003 at 11:44 (GMT -5) by its author] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 14 minutes and 1 second ago. |
C: Re: P.S. The First born of the Egytians might disagree . . . |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7307 days, 2 hours, 51 minutes and 38 seconds ago. |
RE: God controlling. I think God created us, and the world, and everything else in a way that it all worked together. Like you said Iridia, He could control everything, but He doesn't. I think he knows what we are going to do in a situation, because of the way he created us. Thats why the world works how it does. I think its crazy for people to give God human limitations. I even once had one of my friends (a non-religious one) ask why God can live so long if we can't. DUH! Why can God create life where there is no life, and create you, a person who has his own mind, and opinion, and the ability to think of dumb questions like that. It is impossible for any mortal being to create life where there is no life. That is a scientifically proven fact. Show me someone who can, and i'll show you God. Death Penelty: Yeah, i agree with C. Giving someone the death penelty is just releiving (sp?) them of their pain. Unless, of course, they go to hell. I guess thats not too good either. Anyway, let them rot in a jail cell. (: |
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C<U> Unregistered user |
Cadriel, the eyptians did have some ideas, some, but still I don't think God is mortal-like. |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7379 days, 17 hours, 1 minute and 16 seconds ago. |
I'm afraid I'm pulling out of this discussion. Differences of views are based on firmly held assumptions that seem to get in the way of any real exploration of the issue. One last question though, for Caladriel: I think I believe the same things as you do to a certain extent, but choose to instead say that in my heart I hold 'a sense of moral rightness'" and I act the way I do because of that. Would you wish to convert me to the view that that moral rightness is 'God' (something I will never do), or would you be content to know that I am of a like mind, but a similar view? If I know right from wrong and can live a life that is good and benificial to myself and those around be, what matter if I choose not to call this life one of God, but rather one of my own? |
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