Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / Darwinism
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Morio Registered user Holy Champion of ADoM Last page view: 4108 days, 22 hours, 56 minutes and 15 seconds ago. |
"Some people SAY they believe in evolution, but the way they live their lives proves them to be liars." I believe in evolution, I believe that at some stage humanes evolved from monkeys, that doesn't mean that I have to pass on my genes. What if I don't want to have kids, or I'm just too lazy, does that mean that I can't believe in evolution? "I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but I know World War 4 with be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein |
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F50 Registered user Last page view: 5686 days, 16 hours, 5 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
I have to agree with Morio -- not about his belief in evolution which I don't share -- but that Evolution does not mean that a proponent has to pass on his genes. Just because you believe in evolution doesn't mean you have to care about the human race's superiority. I believe the human mind is ultimately bad. Evolution gives a rational for doing whatever one feels like doing, there are no consequences. The grave is the end. "Why did you kill Jimmy?" "Because I felt like it." This is an extreme case obviously. Most people aren't so inclined. But if you do feel like doing such things, what is there to stop you? NOTE: I like an argument so please don't feel insulted (of course this debate is bound to get heated by its nature). "If the bread weights that much in the draklor chain, then it's no wonder so many die of starvation. AND - what kind of IRON RATION weights as much as an iron shield?! A dinner for four, oven included? ;)" -Maelstrom [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/10/2007 at 11:05 (GMT -5) by F50] |
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nOOb-mAsTeR Registered user Master of all things nOOby!!! Last page view: 5974 days, 14 hours, 35 minutes and 33 seconds ago. |
F50 is correct, if some of the extremists out there believe in evolution, nad doi think themselves no better than monkeys, they may find it justified to act as an unintelligent animal might, and kill to get a mate, so they can spread their genes...which in my opinon isn't all that important. I'd rather go through the process of spreading my genes without actually producing a child....if the condom didn't exist, our population in the USA would be like double..... "You try to give Fang, the large dog the bone. Fang, the large dog says,"Do you know who I am, mortal?!?!" My smartest dog ever:D |
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Tianjin Registered user for monsters - Death incarnate Last page view: 5810 days, 9 hours, 41 minutes and 53 seconds ago. |
Actions speak louder than words – actions show what we really believe. I've examined my life, and it comes to this: I HATE hypocrisy. To say one thing and do the opposite is more than distasteful, it disgusts and angers me. I hate it in myself even more. In all I have studied, natural selection/survival of the fittest is proved again and again, I have seen it every day of my life, in thousands of ways, but I live as if it isn’t true. If I lived as if gravity wasn’t true, everyone would call me a fool. My actions show me to be a hypocrite. If I REALLY believed, any reasonable person would expect me to act differently. I would value health much more than I do. I would eat more vegetables. I could easily move to a country where polygamy is legal. (serial marriages would work, though the alimony would be crushing) I could have dozens of children. (the ONLY way to spread your genes) I’m now going to work to find out what I actually believe. Socrates said, “The unexamined life is not worth living.” I’m gonna keep examining it until I find out what’s there, and if it is worth believing. I refuse to live a lie. Try the TiLiCat! It's experience! Tiger, stuffed with deboned Lion, stuffed with deboned Wildcat, and slow roasted with a mix of herbs. (served raw for Trolls) [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/10/2007 at 23:05 (GMT -5) by Tianjin] |
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Tianjin Registered user for monsters - Death incarnate Last page view: 5810 days, 9 hours, 41 minutes and 53 seconds ago. |
Morio & F50, If you don't pass on your genes, you are an evolutionary dead end. You might as well have never lived. If you believe in evolution, and don't believe in a god, why are you alive? To pass on your genes - that's the only logical reason. Sure, you could go the Epicurean route - enjoy what you've got while you're alive, but why? It's meaningless. Try the TiLiCat! It's experience! Tiger, stuffed with deboned Lion, stuffed with deboned Wildcat, and slow roasted with a mix of herbs. (served raw for Trolls) |
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Maelstrom Registered user The Knight of the Black Rose Last page view: 3327 days, 20 hours, 9 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Why am I alive? ... Why should I care? I enjoy being alive because, duh, it's enjoyable. There IS NO deeper meaning to that. You say my life is meaningless. I should sue you for insulting my religious beliefs. Not that I have any, but just for the kicks of it. ;) You seem to have you own definitions of the word "Believe", and you force it down on people. Same with your earlier rant on love and evolution being mutually exclusive, which is just plainly wrong. Don't do that. A pessimist sees a dark tunnel. An optimist sees a light at the end of that tunnel. A realist sees a train. And the train driver sees three idiots on the tracks. |
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Tianjin Registered user for monsters - Death incarnate Last page view: 5810 days, 9 hours, 41 minutes and 53 seconds ago. |
"love and evolution being mutually exclusive, which is just plainly wrong." I showed exactly how I was right in that post. You saying it is wrong proves nothing. Belief is to have confidence in the truth, reilability, existence, or value of some thing or idea. Everyone acts on what they believe - daily - constantly. That is exactly how I have used it. I'm sorry you're uncomfortable with it. I did NOT say your life is meaningless. Please read the post again, carefully. I DID say that Epicureanism is meaningless. Are you an Epicurean? Try the TiLiCat! It's experience! Tiger, stuffed with deboned Lion, stuffed with deboned Wildcat, and slow roasted with a mix of herbs. (served raw for Trolls) [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/21/2007 at 01:03 (GMT -5) by Tianjin] |
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ej Unregistered user |
Tainjin you really studie evolution? Judging from you post you haven't or you haven't paid attention in class. You say that having children is the only way to pass on your genes. That's total bullshit, what about your familie? they share part of your genes if you help them survive that still help you pass on your genes even if you never have kids yourself. Also if everyone would have 10 children we would all starve eventually this wouldn't always be good for the population of people your are in, You'll want the population the persist not have them all starve. Also devoting your life to helping all the people of you population (like your country) makes sense because they all share some of you genes, we are all humans so we are related. |
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Morio Registered user Holy Champion of ADoM Last page view: 4108 days, 22 hours, 56 minutes and 15 seconds ago. |
"If you believe in evolution, and don't believe in a god, why are you alive? To pass on your genes - that's the only logical reason." I don't believe in a god, but I do believe in evolution, And I'm alive because someone else (my parents) passed on their genes, that doesn't necessarily mean that I have to pass on mine. If I have an egg in my hand, I believe that if I throw that egg at a wall, the egg will break. Do I have to prove that I believe by throwing the egg thus breaking it? If that's true I can make this conclusion: If I *really* believe that an egg will break if I throw it agains a wall, I can't have any whole eggs, because I must break them all by throwing them at a wall. "I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but I know World War 4 with be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein |
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Mewto Registered user Last page view: 3810 days, 3 hours, 2 minutes and 42 seconds ago. |
Urm, Morio has a point... You don't really have to prove your beliefs, at least not all the time and not to anyone. For the Horde! |
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Tianjin Registered user for monsters - Death incarnate Last page view: 5810 days, 9 hours, 41 minutes and 53 seconds ago. |
Yes, I really did have a class titled 'Evolution' it was a 300-level (3rd-year university) course. I recieved good marks in the class- it was pure rote memorization of the book and theory. The History of Science class was much better, we read "The Voyage of the Beagle", "The Descent of Man", and others, and had to actually think. Your genes are unique. You get 50% of your genes from each parent. Simplified: If your mom is Aa, your dad Bb. (It takes 2 gametes (one sperm, one egg) to make a human, and a gamete is only half of each parent's genes, you'd get: AB, Ab, aB, and ab. That's why you only look some-what like your siblings and parents, not photo-copies. (but if you saw a pic of my little bro at age 2, and looked at pics of his two children when they were age 2, you'd swear they were all the same kid.) It's true that your families genetics will continue in your siblings if they have children, but yours won't. I'll be helping my older brother put a new roof on his house this summer, but his kids aren't mine. ____________________________________________ Everyone constantly shows their beliefs by their actions. Why do you believe that the egg will break? Because you have seen it happen. You know the properties of the egg and you know what happens when you add force. (Belief) You would be a fool if you said you knew the egg would break, but ALWAYS put on saftey glasses in case it bounced. (Hypocrisy) Breaking all the eggs in the world just to be sure would be nutty. Or paranoid? Try the TiLiCat! It's experience! Tiger, stuffed with deboned Lion, stuffed with deboned Wildcat, and slow roasted with a mix of herbs. (served raw for Trolls) [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/11/2007 at 11:52 (GMT -5) by Tianjin] |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4450 days, 40 minutes and 15 seconds ago. |
Tianjin, you have some depressing thoughts ;) With polygamy you would be able to give less care and attention to each child than you would with a single child or a small family. Most people can't afford to have numerous children, and so put all their money and effort into their one or two children and are content with that. That way you spread your genes but give them a better start to have a healthier, more productive and better educated life. I don't see the point of spreading my genes is my children live in pain and poverty. Eating healthy foods is a good idea whether you believe in evolution or not. Technically evolution is irrelevant to that since being fat doesn't change your genes. It can alter your ability to find mates, but then there are plenty of rich fat people that get to reproduce regardless. But being healthy leads to a higher quality of life, which regardless of Darwinism is a good thing. Also, even if you strongly believe in evolution, do you really believe that to be the most dominant force in life? Like I said before others believe in evolution but choose different things to be central in their lives. The advancement of science is more important to me than the spread of my own individual genes, because it will help humanity as a whole and our understanding of the universe. Most evolutionary scientists follow the same beliefs. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Morio Registered user Holy Champion of ADoM Last page view: 4108 days, 22 hours, 56 minutes and 15 seconds ago. |
"You know the properties of the egg and you know what happens when you add force. (Belief)" I know how to make babies too, but I don't have prove that it's still done the same way as before. "I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but I know World War 4 with be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein |
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nOOb-mAsTeR Registered user Master of all things nOOby!!! Last page view: 5974 days, 14 hours, 35 minutes and 33 seconds ago. |
I liked Maelstrom's remark: "Why am I alive? ... Why should I care? I enjoy being alive because, duh, it's enjoyable. There IS NO deeper meaning to that." Despite believing in god, I still agree that this would be my other reason for life, because it is enjoy it. 'Nuf said Tianjin.I think that we can all agree that life is enjoyable, and realize that since we share common ground that we don't have to argue about something that we couldn't change even if we wanted to..... "You try to give Fang, the large dog the bone. Fang, the large dog says,"Do you know who I am, mortal?!?!" My smartest dog ever:D |
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F50 Registered user Last page view: 5686 days, 16 hours, 5 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
"If you don't pass on your genes, you are an evolutionary dead end. You might as well have never lived." That's not much of a purpose. On a side and humorous note: it is not always a bad thing to be an evolutionary dead end :P ||love and evolution being mutually exclusive, ||which is just plainly wrong. | |I showed exactly how I was right in that post. |You saying it is wrong proves nothing. "With evolution/natural selection: there is always an ulterior motive, or strings attached, or some requirement, or something the other person will get in return - so it's NOT love. (Lust, or some kind of exchange, but not love)" So you are arguing that any story of an Evolutionist being compassionate is: (a) false (b) hypocritical (c) bad You also then have no explanation for the motive for a lot of acts of Love in history (or present). OT: We can also go into is the validity of Evolution (in a separate thread please!) which I seem to be the only one here who rejects. "If the bread weights that much in the draklor chain, then it's no wonder so many die of starvation. AND - what kind of IRON RATION weights as much as an iron shield?! A dinner for four, oven included? ;)" -Maelstrom |
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nOOb-mAsTeR Registered user Master of all things nOOby!!! Last page view: 5974 days, 14 hours, 35 minutes and 33 seconds ago. |
I partially reject it....I sorta believe god 'created' evolution.... "You try to give Fang, the large dog the bone. Fang, the large dog says,"Do you know who I am, mortal?!?!" My smartest dog ever:D |
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Gozer Unregistered user |
"Actions speak louder than words – actions show what we really believe." This is the gist of your argument, Tianjin, and it demonstrates why you are wrong. If you study the social sciences at least as well as you have the physical / natural sciences, then you will understand that human beings rarely make decisions on the basis of logical, conscious belief. Oh, we like to justify our actions to convince ourselves that we are rational, but most of the time we aren't. Emotions have far more influence on our behaviour than logical thought does. And this is not mere conjecture, it (ironically enough) has a proven basis in hard science. Neural connections between the amgydala (emotional centre in the brain) and nervous system are approximately half as long as the neural connections between the neo-cortex (logic centre in the brain) and the nervous system. Thus, we literally feel before we think - and act accordingly. Thus, regardless of how logically "true" a particularly belief may be, it will have little influence over our behaviour unless it is complemented by suitable emotional "anchors". Understanding why we REALLY do anything at all requires a far deeper, sub-conscious exploration. |
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Z Unregistered user |
Tianjin, do you say that lives of ant and bee workers are meaningless because they cannot reproduce? I believe that physics, chemistry, biology, computer science, technology, etc. are all useful sciences which improve human life. Does this mean that I should put my own efforts into advancing all of these fields? Suppose that your parents have a child (you) and want him to do something, say, become a politician. Hence, you believe that you are created to be a politician (because your parents told you that and there is no reason to not believe them). Will you necessarily follow that belief? |
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Tianjin Registered user for monsters - Death incarnate Last page view: 5810 days, 9 hours, 41 minutes and 53 seconds ago. |
"Understanding why we REALLY do anything at all requires a far deeper, sub-conscious exploration." Absolutely. But if you are arguing that logic/thought has no influence over our actions, and that they are purely driven by emotion, I would have to disagree. "ant and bee workers are meaningless because they cannot reproduce?" Certainly not, they help their colonies. They aren't primates, we are. In essence, they act like the individual cells of our bodies, there are billions of them, but they work towards one purpose. If you did put your efforts into the sciences, it would certainly show that you value/enjoy them, and don't merely take their contributions towards the ease/complexity of our lives for granted. I'm afraid I would not believe them when they said "You were created to be the next Great Satesman!" Their obvious desire would shine through, and I would doubt the truth of it. _________________________________________________ Caladriel, you wrote: "Your axiom is akin to saying: "If I believe I am in this town because I was driven here, then I should ensure I have a car to drive when I go to the supermarket. If I do not ensure I have a car available, then I do not truly believe I am here because somebody drove me."" 1 - Anyone who resorts to analogy instead of using the terms in the argument KNOWS that their argument is weak. If I believe I came to this earth by evolution, then I should ensure that my "car" (body) lasts as long as possible to build more baby "cars" so that I can dominate the "market" (earth) and take all of the "market share" from my competitors (you) Try the TiLiCat! It's experience! Tiger, stuffed with deboned Lion, stuffed with deboned Wildcat, and slow roasted with a mix of herbs. (served raw for Trolls) [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/21/2007 at 01:11 (GMT -5) by Tianjin] |
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Z Unregistered user |
Why is it different for primates? We act not only as individuals, but also as a society. Society can be helped not only by reproduction, but also by work. Some care about that "purpose", some do not. You did not answer my other questions. If you say that people believing in evolution should focus on reproduction, then likewise people believing in helpfulness of science should focus on research. And I don't understand why you would not believe your parents. Some parents have plans for their children, and the children (who know about these plans) either live according to these plans, or not. Likewise, forces of nature want alive beings to advance (speaking metaphorically), and humans who know about evolution and believe it either put their efforts in this advancement or not, it's their own choice. Especially that, contrary to religion or your parents, evolution does not tell you what to do at all. |
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Gozer Unregistered user |
"But if you are arguing that logic/thought has no influence over our actions, and that they are purely driven by emotion, I would have to disagree." I never suggested any such thing. What I actually said was this: "Emotions have far more influence on our behaviour than logical thought does." You are suggesting that people ought to act according to their beliefs (be it a belief in Darwinism or anything else) - that to do otherwise would be irrational or an indication that one was not truly committed to the beliefs that one professed to be committed to. However, this is a fallacious argument because emotions - not logic - have the greater influence on our behaviour. Thus, it is perfectly possible for someone to truly believe in something without necessarily acting on their beliefs because mis-aligned emotional influences produce contradictory behaviour. |
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Morio Registered user Holy Champion of ADoM Last page view: 4108 days, 22 hours, 56 minutes and 15 seconds ago. |
Let's sa that a strile person finds the cure for cancer/HIV/poverty, is his/her life meaningless because he/she can't reproduce? oth, this discussion is meaningless because neither of the parts will change their opinion, no matter what is said here. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy these kinds of arguments ^^. "I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but I know World War 4 with be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein |
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4360 days, 5 hours, 57 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
well if you studied evoliution so hard you should now that it is basically two diferent methods in nature: -making as many offspring as you can. some fishes/water life forms make ridiculous amount with low chances to survive. -taking care of you children. make less and raise them. (there are some non extreme variants,ofcourse) given amount of human children per birth/ length of youth+childhood it is pretty obvious which way humans have evolved. have less and take care off. + it is believed what with evolving of technic/medicine physical pressure from evolution is sort of released. we are in sort of mental evolution. who cares if you have fifty children if all they follow my envisioned path? p.s. it looks likee you simply trying to replace soul with genes. so don't forget your offspring have only 50percent of your genes... maybe you should get interested in cloning? making a couple thousands of exact copies would be a pressure upwards your genes to spread, wouldn't it? A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 19 hours, 1 minute and 55 seconds ago. |
Tianjian: Let me try a different tact: Your argument seems to be: "If you believe our physical bodies are the result of the more successful genes being passed on, then you should live in a way to maximize the passing on of your genes. If you do not live in a way that maximizes the passing on of your genes, then you don't truly believe our physical bodies are the result of the more successful genes being passed on." Your axiom is akin to saying: "If I believe I am in this town because I was driven here, then I should ensure I have a car to drive when I go to the supermarket. If I do not ensure I have a car available, then I do not truly believe I am here because somebody drove me." The method by which I came to be here does not control what I choose to do next or how I choose to do it. P.S. remember the 20 line rule (use "Preview") [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/14/2007 at 17:22 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 19 hours, 1 minute and 55 seconds ago. |
Noob-Master: You Wrote: ...I personally am a semi-faithful christian, in that I do believe in evolution along with god... Why do you think that makes you semi-faithful? IMHO, my belief in evolution in no way detracts from my being a Christian. My semi-faithfulness comes from regularly failing to trust God, and by repeatedly letting things other than God become central to my life. |
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nOOb-mAsTeR Registered user Master of all things nOOby!!! Last page view: 5974 days, 14 hours, 35 minutes and 33 seconds ago. |
You're right Caladriel, as long as I believe that it is god's creation doesn't make me any worse of a christian, it's things like you say that I may make more important than god that make me unfaithul. Though most of the people at my church feel that evolution in itself is purely a bad thing that is anti-christian. I tend not to share that I believe in evolution and god, most find it rather strange. "You try to give Fang, the large dog the bone. Fang, the large dog says,"Do you know who I am, mortal?!?!" My smartest dog ever:D |
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Mewto Registered user Last page view: 3810 days, 3 hours, 2 minutes and 42 seconds ago. |
My Geography teacher had an interesting theory about the creation of the universe, which didn't exclude God. We all know the Big Bang theory... at the beginning there was this extremely concentrated mass of matter. It was stable, because it would've exploded sooner or later if it wasn't stable. Now we know what the Bible says: "In the beginning there was the Word". My Geography teacher said that that ball of matter was stable, until God spoke and created the Universe. His word is so powerful, that when he spoke the sound waves made what was stable before, unstable (If anyone of you has seen Dogma, I imagine it something like that), and that's why the ball of concentrated matter suddenly exploded. It's a pretty nice theory, and it doesn't exclude God, but it also doesn't exclude evolution. I personally like it. Oops, I'm slightly off topic now :) For the Horde! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/15/2007 at 08:48 (GMT -5) by Mewto] |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4450 days, 40 minutes and 15 seconds ago. |
In terms of physics it's also a ridiculous concept - the universe was concentrated into such a point that sound waves wouldn't be able to form. It's also not necessarily known if the universe was stable before the big bang - there's a lot of different conjectures about that (purely conjecture because it's impossible for us to scientifically verify anything from before the big bang). Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Mewto Registered user Last page view: 3810 days, 3 hours, 2 minutes and 42 seconds ago. |
But I find it much easier to believe that God created the world (directly or indirectly)... I can't imagine a concentrated mass of matter which had been forever. Why did it become unstable? Why explode? How can so many stars and galaxies be formed from that initial "ball". It must've been enormous. And how come man comes from something that doesn't breathe or live? It's like showing me a rock and saying that in 5 billion years some kind of specie would evolve from it... :/ For the Horde! |
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F50 Registered user Last page view: 5686 days, 16 hours, 5 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
Anything that didn't have a beginning in time is outside of time and therefore cannot change (change happens inside time). Either matter had a beginning or it did not. If matter didn't have a beginning (that means matter is outside of time) then matter cannot change in time. Matter changes in time. Therefore matter had a beginning. "If the bread weights that much in the draklor chain, then it's no wonder so many die of starvation. AND - what kind of IRON RATION weights as much as an iron shield?! A dinner for four, oven included? ;)" -Maelstrom |
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