Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / ADOM / stopping save-scumming...
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 5108 days, 8 hours, 17 minutes and 47 seconds ago. |
> That's a load of crap Gut > Do you have trouble with that Gut? OK, now you're starting to annoy me. Let's just look at some of the stuff you have said: > I would say gray elves are the best choice for wizards Pretty original there : ) > Get the treasure hunter talent asap; by at least level 6. You > don't want your wizard running out of offensive spell to cast. > It will give you many more spell book drops at the start. Many eh? At the start eh? Well, considering the fact that TH only effects item drops from killed monsters, and it yields only 1 more item per ~10 kills, AND very few of those item drops will be books, I doubt that very seriously. If TH gets yields an average wizard PC an extra 3 spellbooks in the early-game, I'd be amazed. Strike 1. > Play with tactics on "very defensively" than switch to "coward" Actually, the safest strategy is to play with tactics set to coward, only switching when you have a reason, such as gaining shield marks. Strike 2. > Gut early on book casting for a wizard is not a good idea in my > opinion. Books are heavy and easily destroyed. Then how do I manage to keep mine for the ENTIRE game? Dumb luck? Random chance? Strike 3. > It's better to suck them [spellbooks] dry while you can Yes, much better than infinite castings. Suck that teleport book dry... and enjoy your 260 castings. Besides, it's not like periodic (and near effortless) bookcasting would increase one's mana stat by ~15 points or so. Strike 4. > Besides that is like 6 talents with stat requirements [SARCASM] Yes, Dexterity 18+ and Perception 15+ is incredibly difficult for gray elven wizards to achieve. [/SARCASM] Also, it only takes 4 talents to get Good Book Caster, which is 'great' in its own right : ) > (just to be able to cast your spells at x1.5 cost). What part of 'infinite castings' do you not understand. Besides, you left out the energy cost penalty, which is a far more dangerous aspect than the extra PP's cost. You also left out the fact that bookcasting doesn't increase your spell proficiency, which is also a bigger downside of bookcasting than the PP's cost. You probably didn't know that though, so I won't hold it against you. Considering ALL of the downsides of bookcasting, I still advise using it. It's just that good. > a wizard should have enough books and have no need for book casting I won't bother explaining to you, the benefits of bookcasting even if you have a nice spell list, because you irritate me. Still though, Srike 5. > wizard with TH should find all [the books] he/she needs in the PC vault Once again. [SARCASM] Yes the PC vault should be a nice, safe place for an elven wizard to start the game. All new players would do well to begin their games there. [/SARCASM] Strike 6. > Any race can achieve a learning of 25+ very easily We must have different definitions of 'very easily'. If you or anybody else can 'easily' get a troll to Le 25, you should just as 'easily' skip magic and beat the game weilding the cute puppy corpse. Strike 8, we skipped 7 because you kept on with this. > Also there are other treasures to be had along with that +9 maybe > even another art. and dragon armor. Would you please give me the name of the dragon armor that increases my Le stat? Strike 9. > "For all the work that one would put into > getting their Le stat to 25, using the methods > described above, the game could be beaten > and forgotten. " > That's a load of crap Gut. Because you irritate me, I will actually break this down to prove you wrong. A troll might start with Le 5, so: > The birth sign the cup will give you a +2. > Than I can think of a +6 bonus [Oracle] We'll add the Oracle bonus momentarily, so for now we now have Le 7. > But if you still need more the extra books drop from TH We'll be generous, and say 14, as that's double. However, I know for an absolute fact (from my gazillion 'limited turns' games) that if you read enough books to increase your Le stat by 7 points, you have eaten up 1000's of game turns. Probably at least 3000. > and if needed the addition of Garth Now we have 19. > only need to get a 19 learning for the +6 to make it a 25. OK, now we add the Oracle boost, and it's 25 (not always though). We had to get enough gold for much Garth training, which eats turns in its own right. Then we wait 1000's of game turns for it to completely take effect. Then we aquire enough gold to get 'very close' to our diety. Then we visit the HMV (1000's of turns again), and finally get doom removal. Considering that the game CAN be beaten in ~16,000 turns, I think my previous statement holds true: "For all the work that one would put into getting their Le stat to 25, using the methods described above, the game could be beaten and forgotten." Sorry, it's not a load of crap at all, as I've done it. Strike 10, you're out. > did it ever occur to you that whizzing through the game is not > everyone’s idea of fun? I think it may have briefly occured to me durring one of my 'fling the bling' challenges... that took rather, forever. If you like taking your time, take it. I was just pointing out that some of the stuff you were suggesting seemed like a lot of work to me. > I really don't see how someone couldn't reach 25+ learning in the > course of adventuring. That seems to be quite a change from 'very easily'. > Do you have trouble with that Gut? I have trouble with your rudeness. Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4450 days, 6 hours and 51 seconds ago. |
My, this discussion sure looks interesting and fruitful. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Sulangatori Registered user Tourist Last page view: 1652 days, 11 hours, 25 minutes and 39 seconds ago. |
Now, now, in all fairness, gut, those were not ten strikes. Strike number 5 was a 'srike'. He's still in the game. |
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 5108 days, 8 hours, 17 minutes and 47 seconds ago. |
I've made more than my fair share of 'srikes' for sure, but I've never referred to someone else's thoughts as a 'load of crap'. That just irritates me. Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4450 days, 6 hours and 51 seconds ago. |
People online are ignorant and rude a lot - best not to let them get a rise out of you. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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tipo mastr Registered user Last page view: 5844 days, 6 hours, 51 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
this thread devolved pretty quickly. <_<; PS: gut check your email lol |
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 5108 days, 8 hours, 17 minutes and 47 seconds ago. |
If I thought he was ignorant, he wouldn't have bothered me one bit. I freely admit to exagerating the stuff he wrote on purpose, he actually seemed to know his stuff pretty well. So it's not ignorance, but rudeness. About answering questions, I think it's a lot more fun to do that on the forums, rather than via email or something. Different opinions are what makes it fun and worthwhile for everybody, but it's a lot MORE fun when people are polite. After re-reading some of the stuff in my post... I guess I probably just added to the rudeness. I may delete it in a few days. Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4279 days, 6 hours, 43 minutes and 1 second ago. |
Don't delete it. It was entertaining. Plus, you already admitted your mistakes, why try and make them not exist? Admitting ones' mistake is remarkably rare on the intarwebz anyways. Besides, you were on topic in that post and made good counter-arguments, would be a waste to have them disappear. I'm still not convinced that Learning increases as fast as people think it does... I've had it stuck at 12 for a long time with a spellcaster character of mine (Druid, I think), who certainly read a looot of books. Maybe the increases are more pronounced for wizards, haven't played one in a while. Also, I'd much rather just get Toughness, Willpower and Strength with morgia and Strained! for my 25 learning gray elf than bump learning by farming crystals of knowledge, stuffing Garth full of money and kill and eat a dooming corpse. Not to mention that the corpse would give +6 learning to my gray elf, boosting me to 31, if I'm not mistaken. As for bookcasting... Well, I generally keep the awesome books for a while instead of reading them till they disappear. It doesn't give me infinite castings, but it does give me more than I need for the moment, and more than I need ever if I read it fully later when I have even sweeter Learning scores. Wizards generally find so much books it ain't even funny, with or without TH, that bookcasting is rarely required, and if it is, can be done without bookcasting talents after all. (I have to admit that generally my wizards just end up getting all the archery talents plus the Porter chain. I always get the Porter chain if I don't know what else to take.) But that's just me, and we already know from the official forums that gut has views on certain talents that differ from the norm greatly, but which are well-reasoned nonetheless. You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
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tipo mastr Registered user Last page view: 5844 days, 6 hours, 51 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
haha, ok i might as well post my questions here...XD what are some strategies for raiding darkforge? the last time i tried, i was surrounded by steel golems when attempting to teleport to the up staircase when escaping. =[ I'm thinking maybe i should go for speed: teleport to the weapons room, scan for good weapons, teleport out before steelies can get to the staircase. BTW, how exactly do the Wi and To bonuses from morgia roots work? i havent had too much success eating them... EDIT: also, what levels in the ID should i look for AoLS/RoDS? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/7/2008 at 22:42 (GMT -5) by tipo mastr] |
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jsr Registered user Last page view: 4732 days, 11 hours, 6 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
> ... TH only effects item drops from killed monsters, and it yields only 1 more item per ~10 kills... Re... really? Is Treasure Hunter *that* weak? I thought this talent was supposed to yield something like "50% more items". I didn't test it, I just can't remember myself playing without TH, but the Guidebook states that TH gives you additional 50% of loot. Is it wrong? Oh my, I'm so lonely and need some company |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4450 days, 6 hours and 51 seconds ago. |
Anyone can get the full bonus from the oracle corpse with the right tactics. This is a silly discussion anyway, since both tactics are perfectly valid. Regarding the serious question of how to raid DarkForge: Spoiler Have 2 shields on Coward when entering, teleport to weapons room, pick up what you want, then do the same to the armour room. Now teleport to the SE corner of the level, below the stairs and the golems. Wait for the golems to move down towards you and teleport up to the stairs. There might still be some stragglers, but hopefully with 60 DV or so you'll be okay. Farsight can help. It's still always a risk, but that's what you get for using a scummy tactic ;P (editted to include hastily put together spoiler tags, in case you all get corrupted and die horribly!) Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/8/2008 at 11:17 (GMT -5) by Darren Grey] |
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 5108 days, 8 hours, 17 minutes and 47 seconds ago. |
Shame on you Darren, for forgetting your spoiler tags : ) tipo mastr: > what are some strategies for raiding darkforge? I think I wrote an in-depth strategy for that in the wizard guide that I sent to Silfir's blogspot. I probably shouldn't post spoily stuff in this non-spoiler thread. I'll have to go back and do some editing of my previous posts, I think I got a bit carried away earlier : ) > morgia roots work? Spoiler Eat 2 (or more) morgia to increase To. Eat 4 (or more) to increase To potential. Double those amounts to excersize Wi. This works up to a limit of 25, and can go higher with sickness and starvation scumming. Moss should be 'u'sed instead of eaten, and it will train your De stat. > what levels in the ID should i look for AoLS/RoDS? Spoiler 24-25 or deeper for a RoDS. I think 6-7 or deeper for an AoLS. jsr: > Re... really? Is Treasure Hunter *that* weak? I thought this talent > was supposed to yield something like "50% more items". I didn't test > it, I just can't remember myself playing without TH, but the > Guidebook states that TH gives you additional 50% of loot. Is it > wrong? This is highly spoily stuff, I am noticing... I'm having to edit a bunch. Spoiler This is a confusing bit of math for sure. Not that it's complex, just confusing. Your non-TH boosted PC gets a 'normal' chance for an item drop with every kill. I assume it varies slightly from PC to PC, as I am not a code diver I don't know for sure, but I think it's ~10%. The TH talent gives an extra ~10% on top of that, I think the exact number is 12.5, (but again, I'm not 100% sure). So in a way, the GB is correct, but it's misleading for sure. Some players believe that most of their items come from monster drops, but my own exp. tells me that it's only ~15%. I haven't testing that properly though. Still, TH doesn't completely suck. We had an in-depth discussion on this topic in the adom.de forums. When I posted that about TH sucking, it was kind of a joke because that was the title of the thread I started there. A joke that I suppose not everyone got : ) I notice no appreciable difference in items acquired in the normal course of game play, between a game of ADOM 1.1.1 with or without TH. I had most of my ADOM playing exp. in versions 1.0.0 and earlier, before the TH talent was ever introduced. I think this gave me a bit of perspective on how dramatically the TH talent impacted my games, which is to say, not at all. I also notice no difference in the number of items generated in ADOM 1.0.0 games (pre TH) and ADOM 1.1.1 games with TH installed. The talents that dramatically changed the game are: Speed, PV, missiles, and magic (bookcasting). I know that the TH talent gives more items than without, because the code-diving doesn't lie. I don't notice the difference, but on the other hand, as Silfir stated in the other debate: Items do not come to you stamped 'Brought to you by TH'. I still think most PC's are better off without TH, but if it gives them peace of mind, go ahead. jeremiah: > that +6 has a limit. I think it is somewhere around the mid 20's I think Silfir was accounting for starvation scumming... Spoiler the process by which one intentionally lowers their stats by means of starvation, in order to boost stats beyond their natural limits. > You assessment of TH for wizards is wrong You assesment be rwongg. Spoiler TH does indeed give only 1 more item per ~10 kills. > I was under the impression coward abused willpower You were under the wrong impression. I'm not even 'spoiler'ing that. > Sure dumb luck I’ll go with that I can't beleive this guy! He honestly beleives this!!! I'm honestly starting to wish for Soirana's smiley of a guy banging his head on a wall : ) > 260 for an idiot wizard > I get around 120 – 280 with orcs > and 500 - 700 with most gray elf wizards I'm glad that all of your spellbooks are generated with Spoiler an internal counter of 5 then. Mine aren't, and that's only one reason why bookcasting rocks. > You can also bless a book to get more readings Blessing a book increases it's Spoiler internal counter... ... I'll assume you meant 'castings' instead of 'readings' and give you the benefit of the doubt. > A gray elf wizard would never need to take that course of action > [bookcasting]. That is the one race the most certainly does not have > to worry about running out of spells If they get a book with an Spoiler of 2,internal counter they do. Besides, fear of running out of spells is only one reason to use bookcasting, there are others. > (Not hitting up the troll on this one [stat requirements for the bookcasting talents] I see. Gee I wonder why.) Spoiler The Good Book Caster talent only has a requirement of Dexterity 14+, and that's easy even for trolls. > I have never that I can recall ran out of spells to cast with a > wizard with TH THAT proves TH doesn't suck? That's got to be the weakest argument I've ever heard. > I do it [mine for CoK} with almost all my trolls Happy hunting. When (if) you beat the game two months later, be sure to post your .flg to the HoF so that everyone can read about the hair-raising 15 days you spent with pick axe flailing like a mad man, hunting for your gems. > You over/under exaggerate on just about everything. So take it > however you want Gut I still stand by my statements: I highly advise the bookcasting talents for wizards. You may not understand the reasons for it, so you should ask instead of babbling. Also, when I said that your strategy of 'cup + oracle + Garth + helms + rings + CoS + pickaxe + lots of mining' seems like a lot of work, well, it still does. > If you actually want to have a fair discussion then by all means That's... kind of what I come here for after all. Like I said before, you seem to know your stuff, but just be civil. Don't act like a jackass by saying other's ideas are a 'load of crap' and you might be like the other 99.9% of new posters here, and be highly welcome. After all, there are only like 100 people in the world who still play this game, so we tend to welcome everyone we can : ) I really respect your ability to generate a wall of text : ) I really wish this was in the spoiler thread : ) Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/8/2008 at 07:42 (GMT -5) by gut] |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4450 days, 6 hours and 51 seconds ago. |
> Shame on you Darren, for forgetting your spoiler tags : ) Shame indeed. If I could aim my crossbow at my head I would. > I'm honestly > starting to wish for Soirana's smiley of a guy banging his head on > a wall : ) #:) Will that suffice? Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4279 days, 6 hours, 43 minutes and 1 second ago. |
Who's with me on the petition to add a "headbutt" command to ADOM? #X( You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4450 days, 6 hours and 51 seconds ago. |
Extra damage received from wall hits and door traps, chance to stun opponent, chance to break helm. Picture gnomish beastfighters headbutting ancient dragons... Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/8/2008 at 12:51 (GMT -5) by Darren Grey] |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4279 days, 6 hours, 43 minutes and 1 second ago. |
You'd get extra damage from the horns corruption and horned helmets, of course... You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 5108 days, 8 hours, 17 minutes and 47 seconds ago. |
The 'bulging cranium' corruption would yeild a message along the lines of "splat". Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4279 days, 6 hours, 43 minutes and 1 second ago. |
Headbutting humanoid male creatures with hurthlings or gnomes should give you a chance to deal paralyzing damage. You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4279 days, 6 hours, 43 minutes and 1 second ago. |
In all seriousness, that's really not appropriate. Gut has done plenty of debating in this thread, as have you. Any reason you had to take it this personal? You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4450 days, 6 hours and 51 seconds ago. |
jeremiah, there's really no need to talk like that on the forums. gut is a respected player, and in spite of his odd opinions he always backs them up with detailed debate. If you don't want to have a discussion then don't, but resorting to mindless flaming is just immature. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 5108 days, 8 hours, 17 minutes and 47 seconds ago. |
> in spite of his odd opinions True'er words have never been typed : ) jeremiah, niether you nor anyone else should take anything I type THAT seriously. I don't : ) In fact, just reading my sig should tell you how seriously I take myself. I don't know you, you don't know me. We have a shared interest in ADOM, just really different personalities (or maybe similar ones, which is far worse) If you could just refrain from being derogatory towards others (namely me), you would get along fine here. Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4450 days, 6 hours and 51 seconds ago. |
jeremiah, read back over your own posts and see if there's no language worthy of criticism. Though I don't approve of gut keeping up the flaming, you can't accuse him of starting the fire. Besides if you can't see that most of what he's saying is very tongue-in-cheek then... well then you don't know him very well, heh. Try not to make snap judgements about people based off online discussions about the merits of minor talents in an obscure and unmaintained game. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/9/2008 at 17:30 (GMT -5) by Darren Grey] |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4279 days, 6 hours, 43 minutes and 1 second ago. |
We've argued with gut before, so we understand that arguing with him can get under your skin, because he has no qualms about dissecting every single word the other side says. But in this case he merely responded in kind, and he is not the one who took it personal, you were. Doing a list like that just now comes across as petty, regardless of how you look at it. EDIT: Heh. "TH TALENT SUCKS" is an in-joke from the official forums. Back then he coined the provocative term to spark a six-page debate over the merits of Treasure Hunter, which got pretty heated at points too. You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/9/2008 at 18:51 (GMT -5) by Silfir] |
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 5108 days, 8 hours, 17 minutes and 47 seconds ago. |
Did I miss a post? They all seem to be gone now. Did Jan Eric delete them, or did jeremiah? I don't think there was any reason to delete anything, I didn't get my feelings hurt or anything. I appologize for being rude and exagerating the stuff you wrote jeremiah. You shouldn't stop enjoying the forums just because of me. Do like everyone else has learned to do.. just tune me out : ) Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4450 days, 6 hours and 51 seconds ago. |
Seems he has deleted every single post he's made in the thread, which is a shame. His points were still perfectly valid. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Garon Registered user Adom Tard Last page view: 5787 days, 1 hour, 55 minutes and 34 seconds ago. |
Heh...I've had a horrifying death before. I had a monk on D:50 who had a DV over 200 and died to corruption because somehow they still kept hitting with corrupting attacks. That was my second potential victory. My first was actually successful, but it was a grey elven wizard, which is easy mode, even though it's still harder than most "normal" games. XD |
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Scummer Unregistered user |
My best tip for avoiding save scumming (ironic I know given my screen name) is to be play on a MacBook...(and be ignorant how to locate the save file if one even exists)...searchlight sure couldn't help...I haven't save scummed once since then (without the help of VMWare Fusion, that is, when I am getting desperate). |
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