Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / Religion god n all that jazz
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Vallak Registered user The Nightmare Elf Last page view: 8280 days, 20 hours, 37 minutes and 41 seconds ago. |
Most of what I read of Roman records was from the library at UMASS. The rest I found online through various search engines and meticulous studying. I love the Roman and Greek culture and was always enthralled with it, so I threw myself at every oppurtunity to learn more. The charges that Jesus faced were for sedition and blasphemy. I've heard every possible arguement for Christianity, and most of them against it. And like I said, none of them hold water. Do I believe in God/a God? Yes. Do I believe that humans are capable of knowing Her/Him/It? Yes, but most definitly not by merely believing that Jesus was the Son of God. "But then I sigh, and with a piece of scripture, Tell them that God bids us do good for evil. And thus I clothe my naked villainy With odd old ends stolen forth of holy writ, And seem I a saint, when most I play the Devil." -William Shakespeare, King Richard III |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days and 20 minutes ago. |
Vallak: Can you direct me to any of these on-line sources? I've never been able to track down anything reliable referencing trials in Jerusalem in the 20's. Do you remember any of the reference materials you accessed at U. Mass? I'd very much like to track them down. "I've heard every possible arguement for Christianity, and most of them against it. And like I said, none of them hold water." So neither the arguments for or against Christianity hold water for you? That's a lot of arguments to which to listen. On a serious note, what is it that you do believe? |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days and 20 minutes ago. |
Iridia: . . . or so you believe from what you've read in the Bible. :-P~ My own take on it: I would not call it a mock trial. If one does not believe Jesus to be the Christ, then, from their perspective, he was committing blasphemy. I do think that it was selective prosecution. I've read that everybody critisized the pharisees -- both spiritually and politically, since they were seen by many as collaborators with the Romans -- Jesus would hardly have been unique in that, and, from what I recall in the Bible, Jesus does not specifically say he is the Christ until they ask him directly at the trial. Also, personally, I doubt Pontius Pilate was that concerned about killing an innocent man. Rather, I think it was just political -- if Jesus' execution caused a riot, Pontius didn't want the blame to fall on himself; the pharisees, however, in the event of a riot, wanted all the anger directed against the Romans, not themselves -- Pontius Pilate didn't want to be used. [Edited 2 times, last edit on 2/7/2002 at 10:31 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days and 20 minutes ago. |
BTW, should breaking on 30 line post up into two ~15 line posts be considered cheating (and breaking 20 lines)? ;-) |
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Vallak Registered user The Nightmare Elf Last page view: 8280 days, 20 hours, 37 minutes and 41 seconds ago. |
Iridia: Everything I found online I came across by using Dogpile. It's a multi-search engine, meaning it uses pretty much all of the search engines that are out there. I just typed in 'Roman Court Records', 'Roman Trials', 'Roman Trial of Jesus', and about a dozen other variations, and then read between seven and eight-thousand documents. The books and files I read at UMASS were all transcripts and copies of the original records. Most of them were written in Greek or Latin and I had to run most of them through a translator. As far as the arguments for and against Christianity goes, you're right. I don't believe either. The theory of Evolution is as flawed as Creationism. Believe me when I say that I have heard every argument for Christianity there is. My personal beliefs are really of no significance, but if you must know, I'm Buddhist. "But then I sigh, and with a piece of scripture, Tell them that God bids us do good for evil. And thus I clothe my naked villainy With odd old ends stolen forth of holy writ, And seem I a saint, when most I play the Devil." -William Shakespeare, King Richard III |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 42 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
Jesus's trial was illegal in Jewish law, whether he was guilty or not, and from whoever's perspective you looked at it from. He was tried in the middle of the night; the witnesses brought against him didn't agree; and the charges against him were changed every time he faced a different court. Whether they believed him isn't really the issue when considering the legality of the trial. It's probably impossible to get a fair trial anyway when the people who are trying you are your enemies. If they had conducted a fair trial, they would have had to hold a public trial during the daytime and actually examined his claims to find out if he really were the Messiah; and anyway, they should have thrown it out of court when numerous paid witnesses told different stories. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Vallak Registered user The Nightmare Elf Last page view: 8280 days, 20 hours, 37 minutes and 41 seconds ago. |
I can see this is going nowhere fast. I have but one question, and if you answer it to my satisfaction, you will not so much as hear a peep from me on this subject. Here it is: In Malachi, Chapter Four, Verse Five, God says that before He sends the Messiah, He will send the prophet Elijah. Yet in the New Testament book of John, whom was the prophet that testifies that Jesus is the Messiah, when John is asked if he is Elias(Elijah), he answers no. When asked if he is 'that prophet', he answers no. Why then does God say he will send Elijah before the coming of Christ, and then does not? "But then I sigh, and with a piece of scripture, Tell them that God bids us do good for evil. And thus I clothe my naked villainy With odd old ends stolen forth of holy writ, And seem I a saint, when most I play the Devil." -William Shakespeare, King Richard III [Edited 1 time, last edit on 2/7/2002 at 16:21 (GMT -5) by Vallak] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 42 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
The passage you're referring to is probably John 1:21-23, which continues: "Finally they said, "Who are you?..." John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet: "I am the voice of one calling in the desert, "Make straight the way for the Lord."" (The Isaiah reference is 40:3.) The prophecy in Malachi is allegorical: John is a prophet LIKE Elijah. The people who were asking John thought, however, that God would resurrect Elijah and have him serve as forerunner for Jesus. They were essentially asking John if he was a resurrected Elijah, to which John answered, "No." However, the answer he gave them when he quoted Isaiah's prophecy was that he was not "the" Elijah, but the one who was represented by Elijah--Jesus's forerunner. Jesus later commented on this: "[John] is the one about whom it is written: "I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you." Matt. 11:10 (The prophecy comes from Malachi 3:1.) Later, after the Transfiguration, "The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?" Jesus replied, "To be sure, 'Elijah comes and will restore all things.'[from Isaiah 40 again], but I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him but have done to him everything they wished..."[refers to John's beheading]. Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist." (Matthew 17:11-13). The difficulty here is mostly the difference between the Pharisees' literal interpretation and John's fulfillment of the allegorical prophecy. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days and 20 minutes ago. |
Vallak: I hope you read those seven to eight thousand court records more closely than this forum. I was the one asking about the documents and your beliefs. :-) I'll be very glad if you found valid court records on-line. I'll take a look at dogpile (www.dogpile.com, I suppose) Your personal beliefs are of great significance for me. I'd love to hear your take on Buddhism -- Nobody has ever asked about my beliefs (not surprising, since I ramble on interminably without being asked) but part of my faith is the belief in the existance of an ultimate Truth. I also believe that everybody knows this ultimate truth, deep down (in the soul, as it were) Hearing and thinking about other people's beliefs helps me get past my own fears, desires, emotions, etc. and helps me get closer to the Truth I believe to be out there. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days and 20 minutes ago. |
Vallak: I did the 3 searches you suggested, and found no Roman Records. Could you tell me a search that will lead me to Roman Court Records from the first half of the first century? Better yet, could you actually direct me to a link? I would love to find these seven to eight thousand documents. When I was in college, I did look for copies (and originals) of Roman trial records from the first half of the first century around Jerusalem. From what I can tell, few, if any, of these records hgave survived 'til today. BTW, there are historical references to Jesus and his trial as early as the 100s -- Josephus may be the most famous, but Tacitus is considered more trustworthy. Tacitus directly refers to Pilate's execution of Jesus, but his histories dealing with that time (~30 AD) have been lost. Conspiracy? :-) I'm not saying that this proves Jesus did exist -- perhaps Tacitus was just repeating what he had been told -- but I don't think one can claim there is a lack of historical data (let alone that this lack proves Jesus did not exist) [Edited 5 times, last edit on 2/8/2002 at 16:25 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Vallak Registered user The Nightmare Elf Last page view: 8280 days, 20 hours, 37 minutes and 41 seconds ago. |
That was just poor vision. You know who I was talking to, so that's good enough. Iridia: That's pretty much what I thought you would say. You can't tell me that what was said by God was meant to be symbolic. When specifically asked if he was the prophet spoken of in scripture, John replied 'no.' That makes either him or Jesus a liar, so which was it? Someone said, and I don't care to look for who, that circular theory doesn't work. What you're telling me is that what Jesus said is true because what John said is true, and vice versa. That don't float with me. Also, that isn't the only thing that rubs me the wrong way. The story of Noah, is one of them as well. Caladrial: It's funny that you mention an "ultimate Truth" considering the basic principles of Buddhism are entitled "The Four Noble Truths." You should look it up. It's as Truthful as anything gets. "But then I sigh, and with a piece of scripture, Tell them that God bids us do good for evil. And thus I clothe my naked villainy With odd old ends stolen forth of holy writ, And seem I a saint, when most I play the Devil." -William Shakespeare, King Richard III |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 42 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
I don't think John was lying because he tells the people who asked him that he is "the voice crying in the wilderness"--a prophecy of Messiah's forerunner. If he were trying to "cover up" that he was Jesus's foreruuner, he would not have mentioned that passage. Another explanation would be that John himself wasn't really sure he was the forerunner--later when John was imprisoned by Herod, he sent messengers to Jesus, asking him, "Are you the Messiah or should we look for another?" (Jesus sent the messengers back, told them to tell of his miracles, the gospel--evidence, basically.) So if John were doubting that he were the forerunner he could have denied being "Elijah", then said he was Jesus's forerunner a more cryptic manner which could have been understood to mean that he was simply a prophet. I don't subscribe to this theory since John was also gutsy enough to preach against Herod's incest, and saying you're not, then hinting that you are sounds kind of weak-willed to me. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 2 times, last edit on 2/8/2002 at 16:41 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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Vallak Registered user The Nightmare Elf Last page view: 8280 days, 20 hours, 37 minutes and 41 seconds ago. |
Caladrial: Can't help you as far as direct links go. Most of what I read was while I was staying with a friend that went to UMASS, which was about four years ago. I believe that UMASS has online access to their library, if they do, then you should be able to find the few documents that I read while there. I hope you're fluent in Greek though. Iridia: I find you're explanations hard to swallow. John seemed to have no doubt about who Jesus was when he first arrived, so why would he testify if he wasn't sure? "But then I sigh, and with a piece of scripture, Tell them that God bids us do good for evil. And thus I clothe my naked villainy With odd old ends stolen forth of holy writ, And seem I a saint, when most I play the Devil." -William Shakespeare, King Richard III |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 42 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
That's why I don't believe the second theory. John started doubting only when he was put into prison (my guess is that he figured he'd be at Jesus's side all through his ministry). I think that John answered their first question--"Are you Elijah?"--in the sense that they asked it. If he had said "Yes," he would have been deceiving them because he was not the Old Testament prophet Elijah. He then explained who he was: "A voice crying in the wilderness"--Jesus's forerunner. Sorry, that kind of restates my first post. I don't know how else to explain, though. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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The referance to Isiah means nothing. My question is why when they asked him if he was Jesus' forerunner(that prophet) he said 'no?' You still haven't answered that question. I have no doubt that there is a God. I do not believe that he would do something as personal as getting directly involved in human affairs. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days and 20 minutes ago. |
V: Re: Buddhism It has been some years since I studied Buddhism. As I recall, the four noble truths centered around the feeling usually referred to as suffering: Its existance, its source, and avoiding/eliminating it. (Avoiding/eliminating is broken up into two ideas -- what it means to eliminate suffering, and how to eliminate it -- thus making four) I would love to hear your ideas on them. How did you come to be Buddhist? Were you raised with Buddhism, or did you adopt it later in life? By "Ultimate Truth," I meant that I do not believe Truth is subjective (although I think it is effectively subjective, since we rarely, if ever, can be certain that we know any particular Truth) Perhaps I should have said ultimate morality. [Edited 3 times, last edit on 2/11/2002 at 12:04 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days and 20 minutes ago. |
Re: Roman Records I couldn't find anything in U. Mass. on-line, I'm afraid. I don't know greek, but wouldn't Roman trial records have been written in Latin? . . . . . . I honestly do not mean to badger you with my doubts. I want to find these documents, because it could answer many questions I have. Please tell me if you truly found Seven to eight thousand records of 1st century roman trials around Jerusalem or did you or a friend only find "a few"? It is perfectly okay if you are extrapolating from the fact that nobody has ever claimed to find records of Jesus' trial. That is a valid point, but it is different from having gotten considerable access to U Mass libraries, as the friend of an attending student, and finding extensive research materials. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 2/11/2002 at 11:58 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Vallak Registered user The Nightmare Elf Last page view: 8280 days, 20 hours, 37 minutes and 41 seconds ago. |
When I said that I had read through 7-8 thousand documents I wasn't bullshitting. However, I did spend a lot of time reading and rereading through a lot of crap just to find stuff of value. Everything that I read through was NOT valuable. In my original post I said that most of them were in Greek and Latin, and that I had to have them translated. The papers that I found at UMASS were NOT the original documents, I can only assume they were copies of the originals. I was not raised a Buddhist. I was born in Massachusetts and raised Protestant, if you want to call it being raised. I found everything on my own, and though I am by no means a perfect example, I do take my beliefs seriously. "But then I sigh, and with a piece of scripture, Tell them that God bids us do good for evil. And thus I clothe my naked villainy With odd old ends stolen forth of holy writ, And seem I a saint, when most I play the Devil." -William Shakespeare, King Richard III |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days and 20 minutes ago. |
IMHO, nobody is a perfect example, and I think it is great that you take your beliefs seriously . . . So what are your beliefs? |
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Vallak Registered user The Nightmare Elf Last page view: 8280 days, 20 hours, 37 minutes and 41 seconds ago. |
I'm not exactly clear on what you want to know. Tell me specifically so I have a better idea on how to answer this. "But then I sigh, and with a piece of scripture, Tell them that God bids us do good for evil. And thus I clothe my naked villainy With odd old ends stolen forth of holy writ, And seem I a saint, when most I play the Devil." -William Shakespeare, King Richard III |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days and 20 minutes ago. |
This thread is too long. I am going to break "Beliefs" into its own thread. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 42 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
That's the second time this thread has spawned another...something like battle bunnies... Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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