Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / An Original Thought...
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7310 days, 19 hours, 41 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
What is The Lord saying? LS |
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Tekki Registered user Last page view: 7343 days, 19 hours, 21 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
Again...what is the point of relative truthism? If everyone is subject to their own guidelines, then why don't I go out and shoot my family, simply because I feel that it is not wrong? Relative truthism is a degradation of society. It allows "free love" to exist, instead of the male-female marriage relationship God ordained some 10-15 thousand years ago(I think that's the accepted date now...) it's pure and logical science: The most stable way of supporting the human population is by stable two-person marriages that can properly raise and support offspring. Same-sex relationships halt the population growth, which is part of why they are declared to be sin by the Bible. "Free love" degrades the stable marriage relationships that are supposed to help stablize offspring. Also, it possibly creates more offspring that will have a good chance of not receiving the proper stable upbringing. All this in turn spawns offspring that are not properly trained to adhere to the rigid(mark) moral guidelines established by God. This cycle results in a breakdown of the moral and ethical foundation of the human race...which explains most of the problems we have in our world today. "Free love" is an excuse for wandering from God's set moral guidelines. We humans are so pathetic as to have to make up our own religions and beliefs to excuse our lifestyles. We all sinned. We will all be held accountable. Thank goodness Jesus came to free us, those that would believe. I am overly grateful that I have been raised in a home that did not advocate the "free love" that destroyed our world. I might have been an advocate of it myself otherwise. You feel a surge of power. Suddenly your extraordinary carrying capacity fails you. You are crushed by the tons of luggage you are carrying. You die... Go here when you are on the forum to chat about Adom! http://koti.mbnet.fi/adrakon/chat.shtml |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3755 days, 10 hours and 20 minutes ago. |
You have just stated a very controversial position. That doesn't mean I disagree; in fact, I think you're right. Advocating absolute truth in a world based on relativism can be a difficult thing to do, but someone has to do it. I'm going to go a step up your logical ladder and say that "Free love" isn't the only thing, or the main thing, that's the basis of our troubles today. Rather, the reasoning behind it is the problem--the reasoning that says, "I can do whatever I want just so long as I think it's okay. There aren't any absolutes other than the ones I make for myself." That sort of thinking--that morality is relative--gets people into all sorts of trouble. Without a black-and-white foundation, some basic statements that "this is right" and "this is wrong" on which to build a worldview, people tend to go crazy every which way, try to build their own morality, and end up with none at all. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Tekki Registered user Last page view: 7343 days, 19 hours, 21 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
Also...why would a supreme being allow for it's creations to decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong? Of course it wouldn't. He, being the most intelligence and all-seeing being, would set the moral standard. Those with the greatest responsibility(i.e., God of the universe), have the greatest rights/priviledges as well. In this case, since He is omniscient, omnipotent, and omni-present, God sets the rules. It's that simple. Corrupted individuals foster corrupted morals. That is why much of modern law is based off of Biblical law. Biblical law came not from man, but from God. Every Biblical law can be proven to help extend the life and comfort of the human race. You feel a surge of power. Suddenly your extraordinary carrying capacity fails you. You are crushed by the tons of luggage you are carrying. You die... Go here when you are on the forum to chat about Adom! http://koti.mbnet.fi/adrakon/chat.shtml |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7310 days, 19 hours, 41 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
Tekki: A supreme being allows thier creations to decide for ourselves because that apparently is our gift of freedom. Also how do you know biblical law came from God himself? If knew that or sure I'd be a Christian and would of read the bible cover to cover. Sadly I'm a little bit too skeptical for blind faith, the book could of been written by anyone. What I believe is that God is everywhere, we learn to be closer to him just by being aware and not worrying about trivial matters. The sooner Christians learn to relax and experience life as a gift more than a trail, the sooner they'll wake up and know freedom which is what God gave to us. The guidelines should be obvious to all humans by now, it is obvious. Do not kill, harm, curse or generally don't cause negative change, strive for postive change. I agree with what the bible strives to achieve but I don't like the threats of hell, people should do good because they want to not for even for any reward. LS |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3755 days, 10 hours and 20 minutes ago. |
God DID give us the freedom to decide for ourselves. If he hadn't given us that freedom, we'd either be robots with no free will, or we'd get struck by lightning every time we disobeyed one of his laws. Obeying God's laws is a CHOICE--a good choice which has many benefits, but still a choice. "The Bible could have been written by anyone"? Not quite. Some of the evidence: --Sanitation and health laws for a community that had no concept of bacteria --Multiple prophecies coming true about Jesus --Scientifically accurate information about dinosaurs --Claims of Jesus's resurrection, backed up by the martyrdom of 11 out of 12 disciples --Mentions of cultures such as the Hittites, known about only because of the Bible, and then found in archeology --Millions of changed lives in the modern world, thanks to Christianity You'd have to research them for yourself to find out exactly what I mean by those evidences for the Bible's accuracy... I could write a page on each of them, easily (but I won't because this is not school and dangit, I'm not going to write ANOTHER research paper). But I can assure you the Bible wasn't written by mere man. Read the Bible, read commentaries, read books written about, for, and against the Bible. Research is really the only way to figure out whether the Bible was truly written by God. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7310 days, 19 hours, 41 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
On the other hand we wouldn't be all robots if God gave us a hand from time to time, or at least sent some angels to remove a bit of curruption here and there, maybe stopping the occasional life threatneing war too wouldn't go amiss. But that's another matter. The research you mentioned could take forever to persue to an overwealmingly convincing degree. They'd always be someone somewhere who could produce countering evidence. I'd much prefer God or some divine being to tell me themselves that the bible was God's word, that would truly convince me - reading history books would leave me feeling still empty if any faith was made. History can be shaped and twisted, especially over such a long time. LS |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4696 days, 19 hours, 57 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
Tekki: Re: absolute Truth: I asked this in a different forum -- Do you believe that you have a complete and correct understanding of this Absolute Truth/Morality? |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4696 days, 19 hours, 57 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
Tekki: Re: Homosexuality is a sin Let us look at your reasoning: Homosexuality is a sin because it does not contribute to population growth. By this reasoning, isn't abstinence a sin? If I never fall in love, and thus never get married or have kids, have I sinned? Should I get married, even if I am not in love, simply to have kids so I will not have sinned? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 3/25/2003 at 17:42 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4696 days, 19 hours, 57 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
Iridia: Someday . . . somehow, I am going to convince you that pointing to a prophesy early on in a book, and then pointing to that prophesy's fulfulment later on in the same book is not evidence that the book is factual. You and I, who already believe that the Bible contains the underlying spirit of God's word (you believing it is God's word verbatim) can take comfort in the fulfilment of the prophesies. Still, one of my dreams is to get you to admit that this is a circular, self-supporting argument and therefore not valid in a debate with somebody who believes that the Bible is purely the work of man. :-) [Edited 2 times, last edit on 3/25/2003 at 17:51 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Tekki Registered user Last page view: 7343 days, 19 hours, 21 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
Caladriel, make reference to the very detailed prophecy about the fall of Tyre in Ezekiel. Details such as who would conquer Tyre, how they would do it, and what Tyre would be like in the future came true exactly. Also, your comment about abstinence is irrelevant. Abstinence helps prevent abortion(which the Bible in absolutely no way whatsoever condones) because you cannot have a baby if you abstain, in a marriage a baby would much more likely be wanted. Having a baby outside a marriage decreases the likelihood of a stable home environment in which to instruct the child in God's ways. The only possible disadvantage of abstinence is that it delays reproduction, but not for more than perhaps 20 extra years at the most. And it gives a much better chance for proper rearing of the child than a child had out of marriage would have. Abstinence is adhered to ethically in order to be sure the child is wanted and well taken care of by a stable two-person marriage. You feel a surge of power. Suddenly your extraordinary carrying capacity fails you. You are crushed by the tons of luggage you are carrying. You die... Go here when you are on the forum to chat about Adom! http://koti.mbnet.fi/adrakon/chat.shtml |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3755 days, 10 hours and 20 minutes ago. |
Caladriel-- Re: Your comment about not being able to point to a prophecy recorded as fulfilled in the same book in which it was written: That WOULD be a valid statement, if not for one fact: The Bible was not written all at one time. The first part, the Old Testament (in which most of those prophecies are found) was written before Christ was born. We know this because it's not just a Christian document--it's a Jewish one, too. The Old Testament in the Christian Bible is exactly the same as what the Jews have been using ever since Moses started writing down the books of the law (incidentally, the Old Testament was finished about 400 BC, iirc). To write the prophecies after Jesus had "fulfilled" them would require that you not only get the new Christians to believe that they had been around ever since Moses, but you would also have to get the Jews--people who did NOT believe in Jesus and did not want to--to believe that these books (and their prophecies) were valid and had been around ever since Moses started writing them. That's a pretty big deception; I doubt anyone could pull it off. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4696 days, 19 hours, 57 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
Tekki: . . . Some people abstain their entire life; not for just the first "20 years." So I ask again: If I never fall in love, and thus never get married or have kids, have I sinned? Here is a second question: I know a woman who has had a hysterectomy. If I fall in love with her, is it a sin to marry her? Here is a third: I am shot in a sensitive place and can no longer have kids. Is it a sin if the woman with whom I fall in love and I get married? In all three instances I am not contributing to population growth (in the 3rd, I am preventing her from doing so) [Edited 1 time, last edit on 3/26/2003 at 09:29 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4696 days, 19 hours, 57 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
Iridia: I agree with you that the prophesies were written before Jesus' birth, but the only historical documentation that they were fullfilled by Jesus is in the New Testament, written half a century after the fact. "The Bible is historically accurate." "How do you know the Bible is accurate?" "Because it details Christianity and Christianity is correct." "How do you know Christianity is correct?" "Multiple prophecies coming true about Jesus" (From your post) "How do you know Jesus actually fullfilled those prophesies?" "Because it is documented in a historically accurate book." "Which Book?" "The Bible." You claim the documentation in the New Testament support Christianity's veracity, but only Christians have reason to believe the New Testament. :-P [Edited 2 times, last edit on 3/26/2003 at 09:17 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4696 days, 19 hours, 57 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
Tekki: Relative Truth I also ask again: Do you believe that you have a complete and correct understanding of this Absolute Truth/Morality? |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3755 days, 10 hours and 20 minutes ago. |
Caladriel: The prophecies about Jesus are NOT the only evidence I cited... alone, they'd be remarkable but not conclusive. Look at the rest of that list, though: The prophecies aren't the only evidence. The New Testament, by the way, does have a few external sources, mostly archeological, to back it up. We know for certain (from extra-biblical sources) that Christianity as a religion existed by A.D. 50 or 60, and that, by then, it was widespread (as far as Rome, at least). If I wanted to make up a religion--especially one based on ancient prophecies--I'd say the events that gave it credence had happened long ago or far away; otherwise, people who lived during that time could simply have come up and said, "Hey--that's NOT the way it happened!" Remember that, during its first few centuries, Christianity tended to be a dangerous thing to believe. People who risk their lives on something tend to want to be very, very sure that it's true. Apparently, they were convinced. And, unless they were all much more stupid or gullible than we are today, they probably had some pretty good reasons to be convinced. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4696 days, 19 hours, 57 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
As I said, it is just a dream. I wasn't talking about your other evidence, just the prophesies. As for timing, check out snopes and find out how quickly people start excepting things as fact, in spite of evidence (or lack thereof) The legends in snopes have occured even with the incredible communications technology we have had this century. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4696 days, 19 hours, 57 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
*sigh* I guess you worry me because I do not see you writing that you believe Christianity because you believe it; because you look down into your soul and Jesus' teachings resonate there; because, on a spiritual level, Christianity feels right. Instead, you constantly emphasize "facts" and physical "evidence" that are only excepted by people who already believe. Such "facts" are explained away by those who do not (want to) believe in the same way you reject and explain away their "facts" and "evidence." It is almost as if you are trying to convince yourself. I know this will backfire, but . . . In the Bible, Jesus does not heal somebody and say "I have healed you. You have seen this physical evidence. Now you must believe in me." He almost always says "It is your belief (faith) that has healed you." "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." He once healed 10 lepers; only 1 came back praising God. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 3/27/2003 at 10:33 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3755 days, 10 hours and 20 minutes ago. |
LOL... I never did say Christianity "feels right" to me, did I? It does; but that's not something I can really explain to anyone. It's what made me research Christianity in the first place: This seems like it ought to be true; it feels like it's true; but how do I really know it's true? Of course those facts I mentioned are only accepted by those who believe. If you accepted the facts as significant, you'd be forced to believe. That's like saying that the fact that ships disappear over the horizon is only counted as significant by those who believe in a round earth. Of course it is!--if you counted it as significant, you'd come to the conclusion that the earth is round. There are quite a few people who've been convinced by facts to become Christians--I don't have names; I'm horrible with names; but you can find their books in the philosophy/religion section of most libraries. Yes, people who believe without evidence ARE blessed. Why? Because, when you base faith on evidence, your faith could be shattered if that evidence were destroyed. It's a precarious position. As a scientist, I can't help taking it; but I do feel that those who find it possible to believe without evidence are awfully lucky. I guess I'm a modern Thomas, asking to see Jesus's nail wounds before I'll believe he's alive. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4696 days, 19 hours, 57 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
Actually, my problem is that all religions bring up "facts" which are considered "opinions" by other religions . . . or even the same religion. I do believe in Christianity, but I don't accept any of your facts as proof or evidence. I believe they are true, but acknowledge that they can't be proven. Therefore, in my opinion, they are opinions. Neither of us will ever convince the other . . . But that is my point: People believe/disbelieve before accepting/rejecting facts when it comes to religion -- I think you will find that most of your writers believed before trying to find facts to support that belief. It is not that I believe without evidence. Rather, it is that my only true evidence is personal, so supposed "facts" are not the core of my faith. If you see evidence in the world, but not inside . . . [Edited 1 time, last edit on 3/28/2003 at 08:52 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3755 days, 10 hours and 20 minutes ago. |
Proving Christianity is kind of like trying to convict someone of a crime in which there were no witnesses. You can bring forth all the evidence you like, but there's really no way to absolutely prove what happened. What I'm saying is not that you can prove Christianity is absolutely true; rather, that, if you had all the evidence, you could prove it "beyond a reasonable doubt". After you come to that point, yeah... It's all about faith. There have, after all, been cases in which someoene was convicted, "beyond a reasonable doubt", of something they didn't do. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 2 times, last edit on 3/28/2003 at 10:10 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Not a bad analogy. It is interesting how much our pride, fears, prejudices and fallibility influence our "reasonable" doubt. Look at all the wrongly convicted Deathrow inmates. I think your analogy supports my point that you should not depend too much on circumstantial evidence -- Such evidence can have more than one explanation. :-P |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7310 days, 19 hours, 41 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
Proving religion to be wrong can be as difficult as proving it to be correct, therefore without solid facts it is simply up to us to decide rendering religion a personnel belief not necessarily a universal belief system which the bible can promote. There is no crime in believing something strongly without knowing the full facts, the worst that can happen is that we'd be proved wrong, and in religion that can't really happen. So we enjoy our freedom to believe what we see as the right path, in a way our belief when strong enough makes it true by the sheer energy and effect it creates. LS |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3755 days, 10 hours and 20 minutes ago. |
Caladriel-- We've all heard of cases in which the evidence was circumstantial but very damning... Christianity, I believe, is one of them. The alternative explanations for the evidence (the ones I've heard, anyway) seem to be quite ludicrous enough that I'm inclined to believe the Bible is true. Luke-- In religion, as in almost every other part of life, we can be proved wrong--for example, if I were to die and find myself reincarnated, my own religion would have been proven wrong, at least to me (to everyone else, the evidence would still be circumstantial). Yes, we have a freedom to follow what we see to be the right path. However, despite our beliefs, no matter how strong they may be, the path we choose may not be the right one. There can really only be one true path, and I think it's our responsibility to find it. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 1 time, last edit on 3/29/2003 at 09:54 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4696 days, 19 hours, 57 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
Iridia: If your soul finds that it has been reincarnated after you die "your own religion will have been proven wrong." Such rigidity worries me. Let me ask you: Do you think you have a completely correct understanding of God's will? When you die, do you believe you will find that all your beliefs were right on the mark and that you had not missed anything? If so, then you really worry me. If not -- if you have made mistakes -- then at what point would your soul consider your religion to have been "wrong?" [Edited 1 time, last edit on 3/31/2003 at 11:07 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3755 days, 10 hours and 20 minutes ago. |
Understand God perfectly? Uhm. Nope. No one can, me least of all. God's too big for that. I expect that I'll find a few surprises, just like anyone; but I also believe that I'm right about the major parts of my religion: That God exists and cares about the world; that he wrote the Bible and that he doesn't lie. Those are the important parts; anything else--like my having misuderstood parts of the Bible, or been mistaken about what I should have done in a particular situation--are mistakes I can live with. The parts of the Bible that say, "Jesus saves", are clear enough for anyone with half a brain to understand, and those are the parts that really matter. You don't have to be perfectly right about the minute details to be a Christian, and I think God knows that. Understanding the important parts--the "Jesus saves" parts--is all that's really necessary to get to heaven. Oh, I have opinions about everything else, but as I'm imperfect I suppose some of them will have to be straightened out when I get there. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4696 days, 19 hours, 57 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
That is good to hear. |
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Prickle Pear Registered user Killer fruit Last page view: 7197 days, 18 hours, 45 minutes and 30 seconds ago. |
Wow good idea on christianity irdia! I think if we reincarnate it is at god's will, religion might be diffrent but the same, in C's philosphy about all religions having some right, maybe some wrong is in religions too. The new and improved MTV...my ass! Where's Bevis & Butthead? |
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Palagran Registered user Furry Hybrid Last page view: 6361 days, 3 hours, 18 minutes and 31 seconds ago. |
Thoth: >Love exists where Creation exists: >At all places where the spheres of masculinity and femininity meet and intermingle. This is the sex. This is the Love. :) I'm curious. How do homosexuals fit into your beliefs? |
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Uncle Ned Unregistered user |
homos go straight to hell, according to my bible |
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