Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / Jedi with Christianity
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 2 hours, 50 minutes and 41 seconds ago. |
Heh, I think we had an entire thread on evolution vs. Creationism and Original Sin |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7317 days, 2 hours, 34 minutes and 16 seconds ago. |
And what about kids that are too young to know about God who get killed early by some horrible accident? Do they then wonder off to hell clueless of how they're apparently are filthy sinners and deserve this? Hmmmm LS |
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Ryan Klein Registered user Because I said so is why! Last page view: 1660 days, 22 hours, 18 minutes and 4 seconds ago. |
Caladriel: I thought baptism washed away sins. |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7317 days, 2 hours, 34 minutes and 16 seconds ago. |
It might be if your past life was sinful? I also thought that baptism was part of Christianity, I guess not if it's part of washing away previous sins or/and lives LS |
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eL Registered user Long lost brother Last page view: 7190 days, 15 hours, 41 minutes and 59 seconds ago. |
can ANYONE tell me, what's the main idea of baptism? :/ It's very hard to be humble, when you are great. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 2 hours, 50 minutes and 41 seconds ago. |
I believe the main idea is that you are starting your life anew in the service of God. Baptism has many meanings. If you had sinned, your Sins were washed away. If you centered your life around something other than God, this mis-directed focus was washed away. If you did not follow the true Faith, your old beliefs were washed away. For some, their old occupation was washed away, so that they could become teachers of Christianity. Etc. Use your imagination. Luke: Baptism is part of Christianity -- Whether it is a necessary part depends on your beliefs -- However, it is also part of other cultural traditions. The term "Baptism by Fire" does not mean you became Christian; rather, it means that your old (innocent, naive) self has been washed away by a traumatic experience and that you are now a different person. [Edited 2 times, last edit on 3/19/2003 at 10:30 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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The Lord Unregistered user |
Godsdienst is voor dwazen en het eenvoudige bedacht. Daardoor, daarom bent u alle eenvoudige dwazen bedacht. Enjoy! |
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eL Registered user Long lost brother Last page view: 7190 days, 15 hours, 41 minutes and 59 seconds ago. |
si, amigo It's very hard to be humble, when you are great. |
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C Registered user Last page view: 6299 days, 8 hours, 33 minutes and 36 seconds ago. |
Just a bunch of Star-wars obessed fans. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3761 days, 17 hours, 13 minutes and 11 seconds ago. |
Luke: No... kids who are too young to understand fall under the category of those who've never heard (or never really heard) the gospel. We know they go to heaven... there's a Psalm where David mentions he'll see his son, who died as an infant, in heaven. I guess I need to add something to the discussion on baptism. Baptism doesn't actually DO anything; it's more a symbolic representation of what's already happened inside the person who's being baptized. It's kind of a "profession of faith"--an announcement to the world that you're a Christian. In the free world, it's no big deal... but, apparently, in countries with limited religious freedom, being baptized could mean your family rejects you completely, or you can't get a job, or maybe even lose your life. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 1 time, last edit on 3/21/2003 at 23:43 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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Tekki Registered user Last page view: 7350 days, 2 hours, 14 minutes and 25 seconds ago. |
How many of you honestly would submit yourselves to relative truthism? Would God actually let us decide for ourselves what is morally and ethically right and wrong? I highly doubt it. The only possible way to obtain any sort of order in such a corrupted universe as this is to have a rigid standard to live by, as displayed by Jesus. Absolute truth must definitely be true. You feel a surge of power. Suddenly your extraordinary carrying capacity fails you. You are crushed by the tons of luggage you are carrying. You die... Go here when you are on the forum to chat about Adom! http://koti.mbnet.fi/adrakon/chat.shtml |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 2 hours, 50 minutes and 41 seconds ago. |
Tekki: And do you believe that you know and understand the definitions and criteria of this Absolute Truth and Morality? |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 2 hours, 50 minutes and 41 seconds ago. |
Iridia: And what is your definition of Christianity, which you believe to be the only way (to Salvation, I assume) |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3761 days, 17 hours, 13 minutes and 11 seconds ago. |
Christianity? Okay... here's the basics. --People, when left to themselves, tend to do bad things (sin). --God is perfect; as a result he can't let anyone who has sinned, even once, into heaven. That pretty much condemns us all. --So, the problem: God wants to let us into heaven, but he can't if we're sinful. Someone has to be punished for sin. --Jesus died as a substitute, to take that punishment. --So, if you want to go to heaven, you accept salvation from Jesus, no strings attached. Basically, a Christian is a person who's asked for salvation. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7317 days, 2 hours, 34 minutes and 16 seconds ago. |
--Jesus died as a substitute, to take that punishment. Could you go into a bit more detail about this? I never really understood how he saved us through dying. I would of thought been crucified symbolised how humans deserved hell even more. LS |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 2 hours, 50 minutes and 41 seconds ago. |
Luke: Re: Sacrifice of Christ My interpretation: When someone owes a debt, it has to be paid for, either by the person who owes the debt (debtor), or the by the person to whom the debt is owed (debtee?) example 1: if I break your TV, I can pay you for the TV, or you can forgive me that debt either by paying for the TV yourself, or by paying through the anguish of living without TV (an emotional price) example 2: If I insult you, you can make me pay by insulting me back, being cold to me, saying bad things about me, etc. or you can pay yourself by forgiving me and dealing, internally, with the pain of my hurting you. Simplified: When you "sin" you incur a debt to God. Rather than making us all pay for our sins, God has offered to pay for them by suffering, dying and being "condemned". [Edited 1 time, last edit on 3/25/2003 at 12:53 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 2 hours, 50 minutes and 41 seconds ago. |
Iridia: "Basically, a Christian is a person who's asked for salvation." I actually agree that your basic definition of Christianity is the only way to "salvation" (IMHO, one asks for salvation by repenting and asking for forgiveness) Still, I would like to point out that such a definition does not require a belief that Jesus is the Messiah -- Although I believe it is made possible because Jesus is the Messiah On an aside, I am always troubled by people saying God can't let sinners into Heaven. BMB, God is omnipotent. It can do anything. IMHO, some people think that they themselves are more important than God. I think God has given such people the choice/option/ability/out to choose themselves, their pride, their hates, etc. over being with God. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 3/25/2003 at 12:50 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Tekki Registered user Last page view: 7350 days, 2 hours, 14 minutes and 25 seconds ago. |
Well, technically, if you adhere to His words, God truly cannot let sinners who have not repented into Heaven. Since God said that He would not, and God never lies or turns back on His word(do not confuse this with him "changing his mind" as seen a few times in scriptures, since in this case he has made an intended and quite definite promise several times) So, God will not give mercy to those who have rejected it originally. You feel a surge of power. Suddenly your extraordinary carrying capacity fails you. You are crushed by the tons of luggage you are carrying. You die... Go here when you are on the forum to chat about Adom! http://koti.mbnet.fi/adrakon/chat.shtml |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7317 days, 2 hours, 34 minutes and 16 seconds ago. |
I feel that God gives us life after life until we find peace with him and only sends us to hell if we really have made it our decision to reject him. I really doubt that we're given just one life and one chance to decide between two totally opposing extremes which count for eternity. Life just isn't that long enough for what it's worth. LS |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 2 hours, 50 minutes and 41 seconds ago. |
Tekki: And yet, God is Omnipotent. It should be able to grant unrepentent "sinners" salvation without breaking Its word -- After all, we are considering if such an action can be done. If God can do anything, then It can do this action. Any other answer would be limitting God by proposing there is an action It cannot do. Just because God can do anything doesn't mean It will do something. I think God won't grant unrepentent "sinners" salvation because such an action would interfere with their free will. People have the choice not to be with God. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3761 days, 17 hours, 13 minutes and 11 seconds ago. |
God would be able to do so, but it would be going against his nature. God's not some nice grandpa in the sky who says, "Oh, it's OK, you've sinned, but I'm going to forget about it"--no matter how much we want him to be. God's perfectly just, and that means that, unless he wants to be unjust, he can't let sin go unpunished. The only just alternative to meting out the just punishment for sin on the sinner is to pay for it himself--thus, Jesus's sacrifice. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 2 hours, 50 minutes and 41 seconds ago. |
Heh, there you go with "can't" again. :-) If God is all powerful, It should be able to let sin go unpunished and still be just . . . but don't ask me how this could be done. On an aside, do you think you know God's nature so well as to explain why It does or does not do things? Personally, I can only express my beliefs, but I have to concede that they may be wrong. IMHO, God is a nice grandparent in the sky -- the ultimate grandparent -- such a good grandparent that It does not force us to live with It. I think God may know that we would be better off with It after death, but It gives us the choice not to repent; the choice not to ask for forgiveness; the choice not to ask to be with God; the choice to place our own cares, pride, fears, selves, etc. above God in our lives. We get to choose the object(s) of our worship. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 3/27/2003 at 09:30 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3761 days, 17 hours, 13 minutes and 11 seconds ago. |
There are some things that are logical impossibilities, and those things can't be done by their very nature, since doing them would simply re-define the terms involved without changing the facts. This is because the definition of "just" includes not letting sin go unpunished. Sure, if He wanted to, He could re-define the word "just". But what would be the point? Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7317 days, 2 hours, 34 minutes and 16 seconds ago. |
Iridia, logic is something humans go by. God can do anything and that includes concepts that us human just simply could not comprehend. You applying logic that excludes other possibilities. There are many ways to sin and the same sin can be done many different ways with many different results with many feelings afterwards. All of which can be repentd many different ways, asking for forgiveness verbally is one way, feeling terrible guilt after is another, karma twisting fate against you is yet another. I believe God works in ways which isn't as basic and as logical and simple as hell and heaven. Justice is something that us humans don't fully understand, there are many ethics and moral implications that can trigger debates upon debates. I have faith in God that he'd accept me and my sins for deep inside I know I don't mean to sin or seperate myself from him, and I believe he knows this more that I ever could. LS |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Luke: nice Iridia: Personaly, I think the justice of granting salvation to unrepentent sinners is a moral question, not a logical one. Regardless, you are still placing limits on God. If God is all-powerful, then, without changing the definition of "just", God should be able to remain "just" while granting salvation to unrepentent sinners. My beliefs may be wrong, but I think them more likely because they do not limit God. I think God chooses to express Its love for us by allowing us to leave It. I believe our free will -- the option to make this choice -- is an expression of God's love. On an aside, I don't think God is bound by logical impossibilities. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 3/28/2003 at 19:12 (GMT -5) by its author] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3761 days, 17 hours, 13 minutes and 11 seconds ago. |
Luke-- In His former dealings with mankind, God has always been as logical as you could please. Our human brains work on logic; and, really, if He wants to communicate with us, he'd have to use it. To argue that logic is useless as a tool with which to understand God is to come to the end of possible arguments. Without logic, water is fire, red is blue, and two is thirteen--if you choose to discard logic, you must also discard every fact you ever depended on. Caladriel-- I am not really placing limits on God; He is placing limits on himself. He does not WANT to bend logic in order to grant salvation to unrepentant sinners. According to the Bible, God's "dominant attribute", I guess you could say, is not love; if it were, everyone would go to heaven. That attribute that so defines God is holiness--being absolutely perfect in every way you could think of. It isn't a warm, fuzzy way to look at God, but that's the way the Bible portrays Him. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Ah, but I think is as dominant as any other characteristic of God. The fact that It allows people to choose not to be saved is an expression of Its love. Analogy: A parent can force a child to do what is best for the child, regardless of what the child wants, but that is not love, that is domination and obsession. If that parent happens to be all powerful, then domination means no free will. The child would be as much an aspect of the parent as a puppet is of the puppeteer. That reasoning fits better considering my experience with God. Your view still puts limits on God (although no you are saying God limits Itself) I don't think God needs to place limits on Itself. It set things up too well for that. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3761 days, 17 hours, 13 minutes and 11 seconds ago. |
God puts limits on Himself for the same reason you limit yourself from buying a gun and shooting everyone at the nearest pre-school. It doesn't make you any less powerful, and when God limits himself (i.e., decides not to do something) it doesn't make him any less powerful, either. The perspective you offered about why God lets people choose against him is also correct, just as correct as perfect justice. You can look at God from many different angles, including love, but he's perfect in all of them. God doesn't send people into hell because he doesn't love them; he does. But when they reject God, he gives them what they've chosen: A life without him. Hell is the only place they can have that. Any place without God must necessarily be a terrible place, because He is the origin of all that is good. But, basically... they asked for it, and God lets them have what they want. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7317 days, 2 hours, 34 minutes and 16 seconds ago. |
I didn't say that logic is useless as a tool with which to understand God with, I'm saying that it has limits on understanding the true nature of God. For example, art and emotions don't go by logic, and I believe these are the closet links to God. Logic is a human creation, it's just a form of simplifying things so we can understand them better, like Maths for example. But not everything fits neatly into this form, God's way I believe can go beyond logic and can only be understood by creative, spiritual and artistic minds. LS |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3761 days, 17 hours, 13 minutes and 11 seconds ago. |
You're right... logic isn't the only way to understand things. As a scientist, I suppose it's the way I approach things, but an artist or a poet wouldn't think of it that way. Still, I don't think logical impossibilities like a square circle, unjust justice, or God creating rocks that were so big he couldn't lift them, wouldn't make any more sense to an artist than they would to me. Okay, so... let's try this again. Replace "logic" with "the human mind" and I think we'd have it about straight... maybe. :) This is getting about as weird as quantum physics... and that's pretty weird :) Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 1 time, last edit on 4/1/2003 at 06:32 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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