Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / Spoilers / Guide to Being a Barbarian
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4069 days, 6 hours, 10 minutes and 22 seconds ago. |
Yes, another one. And crap is it long. Well, maybe it will help someone out there... Here is the link to my Guides page: http://adomguides.blogspot.com And now, comments and a poll! You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd!
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4150 days, 10 hours, 45 minutes and 3 seconds ago. |
part about cursed weapon vs jelly... ever got stuck with (1d8-8,-7) orcish spear? one jelly is not a solution... p.s. i will write a guide abot assassins if you don't mind. Latest this sunday. A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4069 days, 6 hours, 10 minutes and 22 seconds ago. |
One jelly is also usually not a problem. :) If a weapon is sufficiently corroded, chances are good it is destroyed before a full HP jelly can be killed. PS: No, I very much do not mind - I want to see it! You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 11/29/2007 at 00:28 (GMT -5) by Silfir] |
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gravel Registered user if i'm not ADOMing i'm working Last page view: 5869 days, 18 hours, 36 minutes and 8 seconds ago. |
i look forward to the assassin guide and i'll give the barbarian guide a go too because i often play an orcish barbarian and have had some success The stone giant runs away in fear. Who ever heard of a stone being scared of gravel? |
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 4898 days, 7 hours, 45 minutes and 8 seconds ago. |
I liked your guide, I haven't read it all yet, but I have some suggestions for the first part. >To be a true berserker, however, you must not >wear armor while berserking. No helmets, body >armor, girdles, bracers, gauntlets, boots. Bracers don't count against true berserking. The quickest way to verify this is to generate a drakish priest, because they start with bracers of protection. Take off your clothes, and you can stroll naked through Terinyo 'lusting for blood' all over the place. >3. Monsters to watch out for >Actually, there are not many monsters that pose a >serious problem to Barbarians. You mentioned corrosive monsters but not paralyzing monsters: eyes, mimics, ghuls, and gelatanous cubes. If you left them out for length reasons, maybe consider just mentioning them briefly. >You can also try to throw a potion of exchange at >the bastard. Shouldn't it read : throw a blessed potion of exchange at the bastard. >but remember that you acquire less weapon skill >marks while fighting defensively, and more shield >marks instead. I thought that was the other way around. You only get shield marks if your shield causes the miss, therefore the 'very aggressive' tactic yields more shield marks. >Only those with Stealth at 100 who don't utter a >single word (i. e. cast no spells and don't chat >with monsters) The guide book say spellcasting is ok. Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! |
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Jhonka Registered user Kickass player Last page view: 5357 days, 5 hours, 27 minutes and 56 seconds ago. |
>Increasing this skill should either be done during the first levels or not at all. First aid can be used while stunned and its an unbelievable help recovering after a critical hit. I've acquired 100 hp in one round with first aid after i got hit repeatedly by a killer bug. This skill should not be neglected entirely. It's rare to get hit with a stunning crit!, but when that happens it's done by a ridiculously strong monster and the next message group usually ends with "you die...". Getting this skill to 100 is not hard, just use it! I hardly use any skill points for it and it is still at 100 before lvl 15. The skill can be used whenever hp is lost to whatever(exept drowning). |
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vogonpoet Registered user Last page view: 4957 days, 12 hours, 58 minutes and 56 seconds ago. |
You mean you can't choke yourself to death stuffing bandages down your throat? I can't believe there's a feasible potential death in ADOM which the Creator missed. What a shame. |
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 4898 days, 7 hours, 45 minutes and 8 seconds ago. |
Well I finished reading it and I think it will help new players live a lot longer. Since I've been told that I type like the Mad Minstrel, I've composed this. 'Ode to Silfirs barbarian guide.' How many F-Bombs canst Silfir drop, I counted 7 before they did stop. For hours, in front of my screen I was staying, Now, an orcish barbarian, I soon will be playing! I've got some more suggestions, but i'm not sure how much, or any of this you might want to include in your guide, for space reasons and such. I'll post this stuff anyway, and let you decide. >you can become stuck with auto-cursing >gauntlets of peace, which are >indistinguishable from normal gauntlets >while unidentified One way of ID'ing GoP is to drop a pair of unidentified gauntlets in front of a hostile humanoid monster. Lead them over the gauntlets until they pick them up. They will equip them right after picking them up, and you will recieve a message about seeing them 'glow in a dark light'. After killing the monster, pick the gauntlets up, they now are ID'd as cursed. You don't have to throw them away just because they suck though. Keep them, and drop them in front of say, Munge or Grunge. Some PC's might not want to give a monster an extra [+3,+3], even for the (-15,-15), but for barbarians it should be worth it. >b) Hotzenplotz >Don't melee him. Don't let him even come >near you. Maybe mention specificaly exiting and re-entering the town as a method of running away. >f) Snake from Beyond Maybe mention wands of webbing, and if the PC has ! of unholy water, and ! of invisibility he can make ! of blindness, to which all bosses are vulnerable. >g) Skeletal King >Undead slaying ammo. Confusion resistance so >he doesn't get you eaten by piranhas Mention that if a PC get confused, don't use arrow keys, but instead use a useless command like 'E' to clean ears. My favorite part of the whole guide! >Only gray and high elven Barbarian tribes >have established a certain level of >civilization and teach their children to >read and write (while other Barbarian >tribes actually taught them how to be a >non-sucky Barbarian, but I digress). That's hilarious! I actualy got a picture in my mind of a HIGH ELVEN barbarian teaching the little elf barbarians to read, while some passing orc barbarians were just shaking thier heads. Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! |
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h Unregistered user |
Nice, and many of the descriptions (e.g. skills) fit all classes, not only Barbarians; even if there are some mistakes. And where is the ElDeR ChAoS GoD on the bosses list? :) |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4069 days, 6 hours, 10 minutes and 22 seconds ago. |
I didn't think this guide of mine would inspire an ode :) Thanks for all your suggestions, as always. I'll try to incorporate them when I get around to it. The potion of exchange thing: Am I incorrect in the assumption that you need them blessed only to exchange items, not monsters? You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4240 days, 5 hours, 28 minutes and 12 seconds ago. |
PoEx only need to be blessed for changing items - for changing monsters or stats an uncursed works fine (not sure about cursed). The point about shield/weapon marks is a lot more complex. A proper giude to that would be quite lengthy. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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F50 Registered user Last page view: 5476 days, 20 hours, 53 minutes and 40 seconds ago. |
I *like* high elven barbarians. My current one is contemplating the tower after fulfilling Gaab'Baay's quest requirements. He hardly sucked, especially early-game. Darkforge was no problem for him, he had the emerald dagger and tremendous blow. "If the bread weights that much in the draklor chain, then it's no wonder so many die of starvation. AND - what kind of IRON RATION weights as much as an iron shield?! A dinner for four, oven included? ;)" -Maelstrom |
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EmptyOne Registered user Last page view: 5411 days, 6 hours, 24 minutes and 56 seconds ago. |
Great Guides!! The in-depth skill analysis in the Barbarian guide is a great addition. |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4069 days, 6 hours, 10 minutes and 22 seconds ago. |
Just out of curiosity, *did* anyone catch the references in the Metallurgy and Tactics skill descriptions? You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 4898 days, 7 hours, 45 minutes and 8 seconds ago. |
Civilization, I think. Regarding the ! of exchange: I remembered long ago, throwing one at a monster and recieving amessage something "the foo looks like something else for an instant" and the monster didn't change. Thereafter I always blessed them. It may have been a cursed !, or the ADOM version may have been different. Sorry about that, and thanks to Darren for clearing me up. Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 11/29/2007 at 20:27 (GMT -5) by gut] |
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Lost_one Registered user unregistered user Last page view: 5922 days, 5 hours, 31 minutes and 52 seconds ago. |
I noticed you failed to mention karmic beings as things you shouldn't melee..... I've lost too many very strong chars by getting them doomed and cursed by those bastards! "I have opinions -STRONG opinions- that sometimes, I don't agree with" ---Prez. George W. Bush |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4069 days, 6 hours, 10 minutes and 22 seconds ago. |
A single person will never be able to remeber just everything... Thanks! You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
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J. Registered user You'll never get rid of me Last page view: 5665 days, 22 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
"So if you fight defensively without a shield to gain shield skill marks with, you won't accumulate a lot of marks in general." This is untrue. You don't get shield marks unless you use a shield. You get shield marks when you get the message "you block the attack". This means the monster missed you because of the DV of the shield. So if you have 50 DV, 20 of which comes from the shield, then you "block" a monsters attack, when it misses you, but would've hit you if you had had 30 DV. The game doesn't seem to know about the tactics setting when calculating this. This means that you get more "blocks" when fighting at the Very Aggressive -setting, because the lower your DV, the bigger part of it comes from your shield. This also means that shields that give more DV make you gain marks faster, and of course enable you to get a higher shield skill. About tactics and weapon marks: you don't get weapon marks if you fight very defensively or cowardly, and you don't gain shield marks when fighting berserk. If you're feeling happy, don't worry, it'll go away. Originally posted by noob: "I'm everytime amazed how you people know to exploit every single little bug (or not-bug) for elaborated scumming tatics even if the feature seems completely useless or bad." |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4240 days, 5 hours, 28 minutes and 12 seconds ago. |
There is also a limit to how many shield/weapon marks you can get from an individual monster, which depends on the monster type. A tarantula for instance can give you a maximum of 32 marks in shields or melee weapons (the 32 is split between these, so you can get say 12 weapon marks and 20 shield marks). Most early game monsters only give a max of 3 or 6 marks, making them fairly limitted for increasing shield skills. Missile weapons have no such restrictions - you can get unlimited marks from any creature, and you'll gain marks on any tactics setting. Also, more powerful monsters will give numerous marks per hit. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4069 days, 6 hours, 10 minutes and 22 seconds ago. |
You're right in that I didn't pay enough attention to this part of the guide, but the passage J. quoted was actually correct. You can't accumulate shield marks without a shield (duh) and you get less weapon marks if you fight defensively (none if very defensively or in coward mode, thank you). Theoretically it was intended that fighting aggressively yields less shield marks. It's only because of the fact that you "block" more often that this is turned around. I'd wager that a "block" on very defensive mode will get you more shield marks than a block on very aggressive (which doesn't help my case much). I'm definitely going to revise this section completely once I get around to it. PS: And bonus points for gut for catching the references (have been playing Civilization II too much lately...) EDIT: I've been giving the shield skill training issue some thinking, and I've figured out that the maths are a LOT more complex than "higher percentage of total DV -> easier skill training". I have to say that this is one of the things I'd like to explain in my mother tongue a LOT more, since I don't know the mathematical terms. It has something to do with how two six-sided dice are a lot more likely to roll sevens than twos or twelves. And with integrals. EDIT 2: Okay, I'm giving it a try. Monsters make attack rolls, right? They can be high or low, but there is always an average attack roll result, which we will call A. A is what a monster rolls on his attack rolls on average. Now you have an amount of non-shield DV (dexterity, dodge skill, non-shield equipment...) and shield DV (shield and shield skill). We will call non-shield DV "D" and shield DV "S". Let's say D = 40 and S = 20. A is 30. And now a horrible attempt at drawing: P r o **A*** b *** *** a ** I** b * IXX* i * IXXX* l * IXXXX* i ** IXXXXX** t ** IXXXXXXX** y*** IXXXXXXXXX*** 0 10 20 30 40 50 60 (OR WHATEVER IT LOOKS LIKE, SUE ME) The X's are the "block range", an integral. The bigger the "block range", the more often will you block and the better is the skill training. Now let's say those 40 DV were "Very Defensive mode". Let's switch to "Normal" and lower D to 20: P r o **A*** b ***XXXXXX*** a **IXXXXXXXXXXI** b * IXXXXXXXXXXI * i * IXXXXXXXXXXI * l * IXXXXXXXXXXI * i ** IXXXXXXXXXXI ** t ** IXXXXXXXXXXI ** y*** IXXXXXXXXXXI *** 0 10 20 30 40 50 60 Now it's perfect. This is the best shield skill training you will ever get, because you will have the highest probability to block. Were you, however, to switch to "Very Aggressive" at this point, the block integral would go more to the left, and become SMALLER. That's the gist of it. You get the most "blocks", and thus the best shield mark training, if (Now it becomes ludicrous) A = D + (S * 0.5) D being the value you affect with your tactics settings. All of this maths has been done WITHOUT calculating how the tactics stance affects HOW MUCH shield marks you get from a single block. If you get twice the shield marks from a very defensive block than you would get from a very aggressive block, you have take that into account somehow as well, and I sure as hell don't want to do that now. The bottom line? Monsters can be expected, especially later on in the game, to have much lower average attack rolls than you have base DV. This means that aggressive and very aggresive modes are probably more likely to be the best modes. (But they WOULD NOT be against monsters with very high attack rolls!) EDIT2: What do you know, came out better than I feared. You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 11/30/2007 at 13:59 (GMT -5) by Silfir] |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4240 days, 5 hours, 28 minutes and 12 seconds ago. |
Whilst it certainly makes sense I'm not seeing where you're getting your information from. Is this code-dived stuff? Plus you stated that you get less weapon marks when fighting defensively - how so? Each hit counts for a mark regardless surely? Technically fighting on defensive settings means you do less damage and need to hit more times to kill a monster, thus gaining more overall marks. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." [Edited 1 time, last edit on 11/30/2007 at 16:23 (GMT -5) by Darren Grey] |
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F50 Registered user Last page view: 5476 days, 20 hours, 53 minutes and 40 seconds ago. |
The fact that you get more shield marks for very defensive tactics and more weapon marks for very aggressive tactics is, i believe, a guidebook thing. Your math has served you well, Silfir. However, I think your equation for optimum results needs to be switched around as the original equation solves for the best monster to fight. Thus: A = D + (S * 0.5) becomes: D = A - S * 0.5 The optimum non-shield DV for training the shield skill (though berserk and/or coward tactics may not grant you any marks) is the average monster attack roll (to hit) minus half your shield DV. "If the bread weights that much in the draklor chain, then it's no wonder so many die of starvation. AND - what kind of IRON RATION weights as much as an iron shield?! A dinner for four, oven included? ;)" -Maelstrom [Edited 1 time, last edit on 11/30/2007 at 18:22 (GMT -5) by F50] |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4069 days, 6 hours, 10 minutes and 22 seconds ago. |
Hmm... Most peculiar. Checking the manual revealed that you do not get shield marks in berserk mode and no weapon skill marks in very defensive or coward mode, but there was no mention that you get MORE weapon skill marks the more aggressive you fight and MORE shield marks the more defensive you fight, which is what I had assumed. I do not have even a fraction of the skill required to code-dive. I merely took information from recent discussions. And now, I quote from the manual: "Shield marks are gained when you manage to block an attack with your shield (e.g. the attack would have hit without your shield DV bonus)." Monsters quite obviously make attack rolls. These are made against the DV of the PC in some way, meaning you hit if you exceed the DV of the PC. And only when the result of this roll is in the range between non-shield DV and total DV (the integral) will you get shield marks. HOW MANY marks you get for a single block (it is most definitely not always only one) and how this is influenced by your tactics stance (other than you won't get any in berserk mode) is a whol new question entirely. Experiments will have to be done. But I've been up for too long as it is... You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 11/30/2007 at 20:19 (GMT -5) by Silfir] |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4240 days, 5 hours, 28 minutes and 12 seconds ago. |
In my experience of playing about with the shield skill (I can't comment on weapon skills since I've not monitored those as much) different tactics setting do not affect how many marks you gain (apart from, of course, no marks when on Berserk). I've never seen anyone else say or imply anything to the contrary of this before. If your theories above are simply conjecture then I must question them. In particular you make a very large assumption in that attacks are weighted rolls (ie the likes of 2d6 instead of 1d11+1). Since much of ADOM's systems are loosely based off AD&D 2nd Edition I find it more likely that TB has at some level copied their 1d20 THAC0 system, and I interpret the wording of some manual sections to imply this. Of course I don't think this would be particularly easy to test... If your theories are correct then I think it is still best to minimise "D" unless you find a monster is hitting you often whilst you are tryng to train. More importantly a value of S equal to more than 2A will give the maximum possible integral, and negate the need for any D value (though how plausible this really is I don't know). Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4069 days, 6 hours, 10 minutes and 22 seconds ago. |
Indeed, I have no idea how the curve actually looks like. Indeed, having low D is probably best for most monsters since they tend to have pretty low attack rolls compared to the DV you gain later on, meaning aggressive and very aggressive are preferable. If attack rolls are not weighted, then it's a matter of lowering/increasing D to get as much into the range of the attack roll as possible. If the attack roll is, say, between 5 and 15 (1d10+5), you get best shield training if you lower your D to five (quite impossible for a later game character) while having at least an S of ten. In my feeling, if this were true, then a level 1 rat with its very low attack roll should never be able to, say, hit a 100 DV PC. But don't even very weak creatures hit if you let them try long enough? You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
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F50 Registered user Last page view: 5476 days, 20 hours, 53 minutes and 40 seconds ago. |
it would negate the need for "D", but unfortunately, you can't do that by choice. "If the bread weights that much in the draklor chain, then it's no wonder so many die of starvation. AND - what kind of IRON RATION weights as much as an iron shield?! A dinner for four, oven included? ;)" -Maelstrom |
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 4898 days, 7 hours, 45 minutes and 8 seconds ago. |
After reading this thread, Iv'e come to an important conclusion... my math skills are pretty bad! I came to my conclusion about shield marks after munching on bug corpses in ADOM 100. I would take a level 1 wizard to BUGWIL, and emerge with a very high DEX stat, which translated into a high non-shield DV. If dex=99 I would not achieve ANY shield marks, until I reached very powerful monsters like fire grues. If dex was something like 35, I would not achieve skill marks with the shield I started with for a long time, but would gain marks with an improved shield, like adamantium. The situation was helped out considerably by switching tactics to very aggressive. Silfir: I've got a few pages typed up on a wizard's guide. I can probably have it finished in a few days, that is, if you are still interested in posting it :) Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 12/1/2007 at 02:08 (GMT -5) by gut] |
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F50 Registered user Last page view: 5476 days, 20 hours, 53 minutes and 40 seconds ago. |
The rolling system assumed for this math is *known* to be wrong. However, the principle still does apply. "If the bread weights that much in the draklor chain, then it's no wonder so many die of starvation. AND - what kind of IRON RATION weights as much as an iron shield?! A dinner for four, oven included? ;)" -Maelstrom |
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J. Registered user You'll never get rid of me Last page view: 5665 days, 22 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
I think you all might know this, but I don't think it has been mentioned: the amount of weapon/shield skill marks you get for one hit/block is influenced by the level of the attacking monster. You can see this in the gremlin cave. As you start out, every hit to a gremlin gives you 1 mark, but as you kill ~1000 gremlins and they get more experienced, a single hit will give more marks. Greater molochs are good to use as targets, to increase your missile weapon skills. You might not damage them, but still every hit you make will give 5-7 marks, and they're slow so you can step back&shoot untill the monster stops giving you weapon marks after a while. @gut: how much DV did your shield give you and what was your shield skill? If your shield has +5 DV, then you can only raise your shield skill to level 5. If you get a better shield, something giving +9DV, then you can raise your shield skill to level 9 using that shield. If you're feeling happy, don't worry, it'll go away. Originally posted by noob: "I'm everytime amazed how you people know to exploit every single little bug (or not-bug) for elaborated scumming tatics even if the feature seems completely useless or bad." [Edited 1 time, last edit on 12/2/2007 at 10:30 (GMT -5) by J.] |
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4150 days, 10 hours, 45 minutes and 3 seconds ago. |
i do believe at some point monsters as race stop giving marks at all (>2k area for gremlins) A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) |
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