Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / ADOM / Crafting
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Ravorne Registered user Ravorne Last page view: 5560 days, 3 hours, 50 minutes and 8 seconds ago. |
Greetings, fellow ADOM fans! Let me first off start by saying that I think ADOM is probably one of the greatest games I’ve ever played. I have come back to this game countless times, because of its depth and randomness, as well as the DnD’ish fantasy genre ( I love those types of games). So rock on Bizkup! Ok, here’s my problem. Am I missing something here with the crafting? I mean, I love playing as an assassin, but let’s face it. The assassin relies on poison to survive some really sticky situations. Without poison, he’s just a really bad thief. I find that I have a lot of trouble finding the right stuff to craft poison with. Yeah, I know that once you reach lvl 6, you can craft poison out of just about any potion, but its not like potions drop that often (way too random!), and poison charges on your weapon don’t last too long anyways! Should I be searching for poison crafting items in the wilderness instead of in the dungeons? Am I missing something? What am I doing wrong here? Did the assassin just get the bad end of the stick? Some may say that I need to rely on stealth. But stealth seems pretty much useless (they still notice you like 90% of the time!), so that eliminates being able to really use backstab much at all, which IMO sounds like a PRETTY IMPORTANT skill for an assassin! Help? |
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4162 days, 8 hours, 19 minutes and 19 seconds ago. |
poison missiles. I believe it is 40 arrows from one potion. Good enough. A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) |
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Ravorne Registered user Ravorne Last page view: 5560 days, 3 hours, 50 minutes and 8 seconds ago. |
Thanks for your reply Soirana!, but I'm a little lost as to how this is supposed to answer my question? Would you care to elaborate for me? Thanks! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 2/2/2009 at 15:14 (GMT -5) by Ravorne] |
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psy_wombats Registered user Untitled Last page view: 5349 days, 58 minutes and 52 seconds ago. |
Assassins are a little bit of an underpowered class anyway. Poison isn't really all that effective of a weapon. Poisoning missiles is pretty much the only effective use, as a weapons with the "-poisonous" prefix pretty much defeats the point anyway. You could try finding one of those, or else get the assassin Heir gift. Or else not rely on poison. WHEN WOMBATS STRIKE! Enjoy your last days... |
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Ravorne Registered user Ravorne Last page view: 5560 days, 3 hours, 50 minutes and 8 seconds ago. |
Ok. Loads of info for my little head. Thanks for the answers so far. I've got more questions: I'll break my questions down: 1. Poisoning missiles. Are these like magic missiles/spells? It's something you can find? 2. Where am I supposed to get this "assassin Heir gift? what is that anyways? 3. So basically, assassins and thieves are pretty much duds in this game? If so, man that really hurts, because I've always liked role-playing those characters in other games. |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4081 days, 3 hours, 44 minutes and 38 seconds ago. |
1. Missiles can become poisoning missiles if you dip (command executed with "!") them in a potion of poison. Apparently it works for stacks of forty at once (I never tested this, but Soirana is pretty much always right), which means that you can get forty attacks with only one potion, while dipping your melee weapon in the potion would give you about three poisonous attacks. Throwing the entire potion at your enemy means one poisoning per potion - if you've been doing that, there's no wonder you've run out ;) 2. "Heir gifts" are class-specific items that you can receive if you choose a certain combination of talents at startup; you need three starting talents for this. The talents you have to choose are Charming, Boon to the Family, and subsequently Heir (it will only be available once you've chosen the other two). 3. It's true that they are less powerful. Assassins have excellent skills, yet sadly they are pretty frail - you have to be careful when playing them and use missile attacks if possible. Thieves are even worse. But I wouldn't say you should stop playing them - In ADOM your power isn't "fixed" with a choice of class, as it might be in D&D (where pure fighters, for instance, would be seen as suboptimal), but can be increased in a multitude of ways. As long as you're fine with dying from time to time (we've all died a LOT), you will be fine playing any class, including Assassins ;) You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4252 days, 3 hours, 2 minutes and 28 seconds ago. |
I believe it's stacks of 20 for arrows and quarrels, but that's still quite a tasty amount. Assassins are good for some of their skills, but are very weak - you have to be careful with them. They become a lot tastier later on, and the backstabbing more effective if you find an invisibility source (so that you're always backstabbing enemies). Potions can be found plentifold in the infinite dungeon in my experience. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4162 days, 8 hours, 19 minutes and 19 seconds ago. |
it is 40 both arrows and quarrels [can't remember poisoning rocks]. The only time i know your stacks are not limited to under 20 stones per dip. re missiles: anyting going in missile slot. Early on it is usually stackable daggers. Assassins start in lv4 of =thrown daggers which is essential Ranged combat is in general overpowered. decent modifiers, slaying ammo, better criticals... Edit: actually daggers go four per potion. not that bad early on. A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) [Edited 1 time, last edit on 2/2/2009 at 21:24 (GMT -5) by Soirana] |
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ChaoosMuffin Unregistered user |
Assassins, (despite some opinions O.o) ARE AWESOME. when u start put your largest stack of daggers into ur missile slot, you start about lvl 4-6 with thrown weapons. Sword skill bout 2, but daggers also starts bout lvl 4-6, so nom nom :) Use ur poison on tough creatures like raiders barbarians etc in the beginning if no-ones said dip ur poison wand (if u get one) into PoBooze or use a scroll of charging Assassins arent too frail - just dont make an elf assassin :) i usually make human assassins (artemis entreri anyone?) although drackish ones are nice. Pretty much all there skills are nice enough, the 'instakill' one is similar to thee monk one, but not as cool Raven is a nice starsign for them, i use that or the Candle. Talentwise, speed is nice, healthy in the beginning, i usually pick the pv/hit point ones over the dv, as assassins have nice dv anyway. Alert is ok if ur goin to get Treasure hunter otherwise not. peace out, remember dual wielding is awesome. dual wielding needle and sting is badass. |
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 4910 days, 5 hours, 19 minutes and 24 seconds ago. |
> Assassins are good for some of their skills, but are very weak fail > Assassins are a little bit of an underpowered class fail > Assassins have excellent skills, yet sadly they are pretty frail frail ... I mean fail > Assassins, (despite some opinions O.o) ARE AWESOME. WOOOOT! We have a winner! I can't remember ever before reading a post in which I agreed with absolutely everything in it. The only thing I would add is that (IMO) troll assasins start with the best skillset in the game, and you won't have to worry about ~frailness~. Keep rolling them until you get awesome St and To stats though. Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 2/3/2009 at 05:39 (GMT -5) by gut] |
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AshenPlanet Registered user Last page view: 3190 days, 16 hours, 26 minutes and 10 seconds ago. |
I concur; an assassin is definitely not "just a really bad thief". In fact, I'm playing a human assassin right now. Trolls and drakelings also make good assassins (food preservation is a big deal). Thieves are weak, their special flavor revolves around getting more and better items than any other class (except merchants with their specialty). Assassins, on the other hand, can be quite deadly in combat. As for poisoning, save your poisons for nasty bosses like the druid, water dragon, and orb guardians. Poison doesn't do much to regular critters, but against tough bosses, it really speeds up killing them. The heir gift is not worth spending the talents on imho, thieves get an awesome heir gift, but for assassins it's blah. As for stealth, don't expect it to come into play much at all until you get it to at least 90+. Also, the stealthy talent is actually a much bigger effect than what is written in the manual - it can make a huge difference for assassins. In general however, your biggest combat advantage lies in better crits and instant kills. Most characters go after slaying weapons and ammo because against specific creature types, those weapons auto-crit. Assassins get a huge +20% bonus to their crits which allows them the luxury of going after the biggest damage weapons they can find instead of the slaying ones. These are late game bonuses, but if you can survive that long, you'll really be happy with them. For an assassin, weapons like needle & sting are doubly effective since you will crit much more often than other characters. Wear any item you find that gives bonuses to crits like bracers of war, ankh, and the ring of the master cat. The ring gives the biggest +crit bonus, so don't kill any cats! ;) Also, normal weapons like whips of slaughtering and orcish daggers are deadly in an assassins hands. You will actually do better with a pair of orcish daggers than daggers of death at high levels with all your crit bonuses added in. A few artifacts also crit more often like grod, serpent's bite, and especially the axe of the minotaur emperor. Crits multiply your base damage, so build on the stats that your preferred weapon type uses. For most weapon types, damage is based mostly on strength, so get as much strength as possible if you're using the minotaur axe or glod. For daggers, it's 50/50 strength and dex for damage bonus if I recall correctly. For whips and missle weapons, damage bonus comes more from dex, so for these concentrate on dex. The early game may be a bit rougher, but assassins do shine later on. |
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 4910 days, 5 hours, 19 minutes and 24 seconds ago. |
> Wear any item you find that gives bonuses to crits like bracers of war, ankh, Ankh? > For whips and missle weapons, damage bonus comes more from dex, I thought damage output was mainly dependant only on St for everything but whips, and speed was the main factor for that. Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4252 days, 3 hours, 2 minutes and 28 seconds ago. |
> Also, normal weapons like whips of slaughtering > and orcish daggers are deadly in an assassins hands. And both are some of the rarest items in the game. Also whips of slaughtering don't add to criticals. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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AshenPlanet Registered user Last page view: 3190 days, 16 hours, 26 minutes and 10 seconds ago. |
Whips of slaughtering do have added crit chance, and these are rare items. I mentioned that these are late game bonuses, and by the time you get to 50th level, you should find 1 or 2 whips of slaughtering. Orcish daggers are far more common. Ankh has lucky and fate smiles, which will both affect your chance to get crits slightly plus... Spoiler .a hidden bonus which applies to every roll made (this value was gleaned from code-diving, so I won't post it here unless people tell me that's acceptible) As for damage bonus, Spoiler those numbers also came from code-diving, so unless it's ok, I'll refrain from posting. I don't have those numbers readily available anyway, so if it is ok to post those numbers, I can search my old notes later this week and post the exact numbers. Speed does not affect damage bonus from any weapon, including whips. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 2/21/2009 at 09:31 (GMT -5) by AshenPlanet] |
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 4910 days, 5 hours, 19 minutes and 24 seconds ago. |
I didn't know that 'lucky' and 'fate smiles' helps with crits, good to know. About speed and whips, I must have been thinking of the part of the manual referring to dual wielding: "Rules-wise this means that you will require a lot of speed to fight effectively with these two whips." But of course that may be referring to De as well. If I'm not mistaken, Darren was talking about 'bloody' daggers being rare, which they difinitely are. They are all listed as orcish daggers once identified though, so it's confusing. A smithed up bloody dagger in the hands of an assasin is a powerful thing indeed. If a player was lucky enough to come across a bloody dagger of devastation they may well have the most powerful one-hander in the game. Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 2/18/2009 at 02:13 (GMT -5) by gut] |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4081 days, 3 hours, 44 minutes and 38 seconds ago. |
I don't think there ARE orcish ("bloody") daggers of devastation, at least not unless there can be murderous swords of sharpness. Speaking of which, doesn't "murderous" increase crit? In that case, the most powerful one-hander in the game should be... a murderous eternium flail of devastation or something? EDIT: confused one with two Tune in next time when I confuse elephants with kittens and get stomped by an angry pachyderm that doesn't take kindly to being petted You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 2/18/2009 at 19:01 (GMT -5) by Silfir] |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4252 days, 3 hours, 2 minutes and 28 seconds ago. |
Halberds are better than flails... I'd maybe take wicked or brutal over murderous though - criticals are nice, but constant higher damage is more useful in my books. Only assassins with BoW and RotMC get criticals so often that you can really count on them to take down most enemies, and they likely don't need whatever small extra murderous gives. Besides, slaying ammo wins overall :) I personally rarely find whips of slaughtering or bloody daggers in any game, and in every game I deliberately keep a close eye out for whips (since they can be very handy for alignment purposes). Both are also vulnerable to destruction, making them not so great to rely on. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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AshenPlanet Registered user Last page view: 3190 days, 16 hours, 26 minutes and 10 seconds ago. |
Not all +crit bonuses are equal. The minotaur axe has the highest +crit bonus, iirc, but of course, it's a 2hander. Murderous should be better, but it's actually a small bonus compared to the weapons that have +crit intrinsic. You can't get prefix or suffix on whips of slaughtering, but I'm not sure about orcish daggers. If I get one with my current human assassin, I'll let you know... ;) Halberds are better than flails... Yes, and two-handed swords / axes are better than halberds, but of course, 2handed vs. 1handed comes into play as well. And yes, slaying ammo wins, but slaying ammo is the same for everyone who isn't an archer. Assassins can do well even when they've run out of slaying ammo. Damage vs. crit chance really depends on your stats. If you have low damage bonus stats at 50th level (sub-50), then needle & sting are the best weapons. If you have good stats at 50 and/or a ring of slaying or 2, then +crit blows away weapon damage bonus for assassin effectivity. |
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AshenPlanet Registered user Last page view: 3190 days, 16 hours, 26 minutes and 10 seconds ago. |
Re: damage bonus: Could not find my old notes, so I did a few empirical tests using cloak of oman (+8 dex) and a girdle of giant strength (+12 st). It seems that all to-hit bonus and damage bonus comes from strength for most melee weapons. It seems that all to-hit bonus and damage bonus comes from dex for missiles (including thrown daggers). It seems that all to-hit bonus comes from strength for whips, and all damage bonus comes from dex for whips. |
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AshenPlanet Registered user Last page view: 3190 days, 16 hours, 26 minutes and 10 seconds ago. |
I finished my assassin game, and learned a few things. :) I found 1 bloody dagger, 4 whips of slaughtering, and 9 phase daggers that game. The bloody dagger, I found early on that game (around 12th level), but it was the only one I found during the game. I found the whips of slaughtering at much higher levels (first one found at level 22). I found 9 phase daggers - these are way more common than either +crit item, but found at higher levels also. I noticed that phase daggers do NOT penetrate when used as thrown missiles - their phase property only kicks in for melee attacks. So, weapons of penetration are superior in that regard, although you'd not have a stackable pile of thrown penetrating weapons except for scurgari. Got emerald dagger in darkforge, and comparing, a murderous dagger crit less often than emerald dagger. The bloody dagger, on the other hand, crit far more often than the emerald dagger. With class bonus + ankh + bracers + cat ring + 100 find weakness, more than 3 out of every 4 hits was a crit! The emerald dagger under those same conditions crit about 60%-65% of the time. One thing that surprised me was that when +crit items like the bracer and cat ring were added, the gap in crit rate between the bloody dagger and the emerald dagger seemed to widen! That seems to indicate that those +crit bonuses are not adding to the crit chance, but possibly multiplying the crit chance... I'd need to do more tests to be sure. I went through most of the game with bloody dagger in right hand and emerald dagger in left; switched when I got needle & sting which happened after I'd already been 50th level for awhile. |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4252 days, 3 hours, 2 minutes and 28 seconds ago. |
That's some impressive item finds - I wonder if maybe assassins get more of that shizzaz, or was it perhaps a very long game? The thing about crit rates is also of great interest, though Emerald Dagger is obviously still nice for its other properties. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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AshenPlanet Registered user Last page view: 3190 days, 16 hours, 26 minutes and 10 seconds ago. |
It was a relatively long game. I could post the vlg, if you'd like to see it. 27789097 score over 169319 turns. A big chunk of that was getting 3 pre-crowns - that took for-eva! I usually only do 2 pre-crowns, but I had several gardens going near the altar, so I went for the third. First 2 were scorched spear and hammer of the gods both of which I fed to ratling; third was shining silver bracers. :) Getting the third pre-crown takes like 4 times longer than the second which takes like twice as long as the first pre-crown. Interestingly, I got no artifacts from graves or pickpocketing this game, and had no greater vaults at all, but I did get 2 surges of power later in the game. I don't think assassins find any better stuff than others, though I think thieves do. The crit rate of murderous being less than other +crit weapons is what I remembered, but the bloody dagger being higher than emerald dagger surprised me. Maybe the next time I play a fighter, I can test thoroughly with all different kinds of +crit weapons and ankh/ring/bracer additive/multiple effects. Of course, the bracers are random, so no gaurantees with that. I just stuck with daggers this game. I found a crystal dagger in the blanket cave level 1 (along with an eternium halberd that I never used, lol). I found a murderous dagger shortly after in the puppy cave, the bloody dagger later, and got the emerald dagger from darkforge just before I went into the pyramid. PS. I don't think you can get bloody daggers with any ego effects, but you can get ego on rabbit knives - I got a brutal rabbit knife of devastation. |
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gut Registered user Painted this one too. Last page view: 4910 days, 5 hours, 19 minutes and 24 seconds ago. |
> I don't think there ARE orcish ("bloody") > daggers of devastation, at least not unless > there can be murderous swords of sharpness. Swords of sharpness, maces of disruption, and all other 'special' weapons that predate the addition of pre/suffixes are not elligible for additional pre/suffixes as far as I know. A 'bloody' dagger is only 'bloody' until wielded, and then it's identified as 'orcish', the same as all the others. This leads me to believe that it is eligible for pre/suffixes because both 'crude', and 'orcish' (?) daggers are eligible for them. I also have never seen a bloody dagger with a pre/suffix, but I always chalked that up to the fact that they are sooooo rare. Put me in the 'fool filter', where I belong! |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4252 days, 3 hours, 2 minutes and 28 seconds ago. |
Did a test - regular orcish daggers can have pre/suffixes, but bloody daggers can't. Generated 80 of them with no positive results (whilst around 50 orcish daggers had about 15% positive). Bloody daggers also don't like to stack nicely - I wonder if there's a difference in their crit chance? Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4162 days, 8 hours, 19 minutes and 19 seconds ago. |
I think not. Some things with hidden modifiers just does not stack properly. Best known are rings of damage. Well, these are at least easy to test out. A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) |