Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / Religious Beliefs
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 18 hours, 1 minute and 43 seconds ago. |
Guinea: If I understand your question correctly, you are asking why the way we live and the choices we make matter if God already knows whether we will be damned or saved. The answer I would give to this is that God's knowledge does not make our fate predetermined. God's knowledge merely makes our fate preknown. This is an important distinction. It means that, when we are born, God knows what our fate will be, not in spite of how we will live our lives, but, rather, It knows our fate because of how we will live our lives. (How we will live our lives would also be known to It) Analogy: If you see a fire under a kettle of water, you know that the water will boil. The "fate" of the water is pre-known to you. Now then, does this preknowledge cause the water to boil? No. Similarly, IMHO, God may know your fate, but that fate is still determined by how you live your life. ie. God knows how you will live your life, and thus what your fate will be, but It doesn't make you live that way. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/8/2002 at 23:24 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3762 days, 8 hours, 24 minutes and 13 seconds ago. |
Very good point, Caladriel. I'm going to copy that off and show it to my Calvinist friend... (Calvinist="believes in predestination (predetermination)", BTW) Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7837 days, 11 hours, 30 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
I hate being gone away from a thread for too long! Jan: It is the individual person's decision whether to make each action for or against God. Example, for making a movie that encourages sin, it would be against those who made it. It is up to the people to watch it or not. As far as making money, consider Matthew 19:16-26. It's a bit too big to nutshell, but the point of it is "And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." The part of it being cool... if it were "cool" to be use an inverted pentagram or inverted cross in advertising, do you honestly think God would approve? Re: Spawn, no, although at one time I was. Re: Resident Evil, I know it has nothing to do with the occult, but still although the heroes must be heroic, they are still killing -people- (even if they aren't in their right minds anymore). My signature is umop apisdn. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/14/2002 at 10:45 (GMT -5) by DarkWolf] |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7837 days, 11 hours, 30 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Re: Hedonistic, Not those mentioned above, however "mainstream" Satanism, the concept of "Survival of the fittest" (Darwinism) placed among humans, Utilitarian religion, Humanism, Pagans (one definition of The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition calls a pagan a hedonist), among others. Re: Buddhism Didn't Siddhartha Gautama practice extreme self denial after seeing the suffering of the world? And after meditating under the bohdi tree, he recieved enlightenment, hence becoming the Buddha? Yes, he taught "the Middle Way", but he also teaches by example. Buddha believed that the only way the cycle of reincarnation could be broken was the elimination of worldly cares (self denial). My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7837 days, 11 hours, 30 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Regrettably, I haven't seen Army of Darkness, but I'll take your word for it 'cuz I have seen Evil Dead, and I agree that it IS the funniest movie, but the fact that it is funny doesn't make it good in the sight of God. Now I'm not saying BAN them... Let those who want to watch, watch, but as a warning to those who are Christian to avoid stuff like it (ask yourself, would God WANT me to watch/read/do stuff like that?). My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7837 days, 11 hours, 30 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Re: rebellion and communism Romans 13:1-2 "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore he who resists autrhority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves." re: Haiti The people can always leave. Look at slavery in America. They slaves left via the Underground Railroad. There is always an option open to all people, but they must be willing to make the choice; however to rebel against the government is opposing God. And favoritism, I agree except in one case, the Jews have the RIGHT to the land of Israel because of the covenant God made with Abraham. My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7837 days, 11 hours, 30 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Iridia : Re: Communism, you posted it better than I ever could. But re: Satan, if it weren't for Satan, human nature would not be as such. ^_^ My signature is umop apisdn. |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Darkwolf: Re: Haiti Do you have any idea what the the conditions were like in Haiti before the rebellion? You should really research before you post. Do you believe that God put an government in place that decided it was more economic to work the slaves to death and just import new ones? I am interested to hear what you considered an option that was open to them, other than rebellion. What would your choice have been. Even your post about the underground railroad (which existed in the U.S., not Haiti) is a tad naive. Escape was not always possible, and if you tried/succeeded, you were condemning those you left behind to beatings or death, which were administered to discourage others from trying to escape. [Edited 3 times, last edit on 9/15/2002 at 22:56 (GMT -5) by its author] |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Re: Buddhism To put it simply, no, Buddhism does not teach that self denial is the way to enlightenment. At least not according to any Buddhist I have ever spoken to. In fact, denial of reality is contrary to everything I have ever learned of Buddhism. Without understanding and coping with his/her feelings and desires, a Buddhist will never achieve enlightenment. Apparantly, Siddhartha's meditation was neither a rejection nor a denial of the world. He meditated to understand and come to terms with the world. |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
Another benefit of trying to keep posts to 20 lines or less is that it prevents one (myself, in this case) from putting in all the sarcasm that I desperately want to put in my post. |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
If I were a braver man, I would start a thread for an in depth discussion of the morality of the Israeli/Palestinian situation . . . . . . I will direct you to my earlier post to Jan, where I explained why I do not see homosexuality as inherently evil. The same applies here. Discrimination Hurts people for your own benefit. It is not loving others as yourself. Using God's name to help yourself at the expense of others is certainly not putting God first and foremost. Manifest destiny aside, I cannot accept that anybody can be so sure of their beliefs that they have the right to enforce it on others, or discriminate against others simply for not being a part of that religion. IMHO, this applies to all people, including Israel, Iran, India, China and the U.S. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 18 hours, 1 minute and 43 seconds ago. |
Oops, my post to Jan was in "Any other Christians" Sorry about being . . . snippety . . . last night. Slavery is a bit of a touchy subject for me, but it is my own fault for bringing it up. Please ignore any sarcasm. I do want to read your defense of the idea that God is responsible for all the governments that are in power, and what options you would propose in cases such as Napolean's Haiti and Nazi Germany other than Rebellion. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/16/2002 at 09:05 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7837 days, 11 hours, 30 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
It's quite alright about the sarcasm. Everyone has touchy subjects. re: Haiti, you're right, I should have researched it. However there is always the option to flee (even if it's a "chew-through-your-leg" means of escape), "To where?"... build a boat and swim? Honestly, I don't know. But, I feel there is always an escape, even if it means death. re: Buddhism, I thought that he lived in ultimate riches, then denied himself of worldly pleasures, then he saw that both ways were the cause of the world's pain, and decided that the "Middle Way" was the path to nirvana. One statement that Buddha promoted was anatman, or the concept that there is no self [denial of ego]. [Perhaps "self-denial" was not the choicest of words to use, but "refusal to bow to the whims of the flesh" may have been a better term, but too long and potentially repititious] My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7837 days, 11 hours, 30 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
re: Discrimination, If we cannot be sure about the stated truths within each religion, be it Wicca, Paganism, Catholicism, Mormonism, General Christian, Nordic, My-Barbie-Doll-Is-My-Wife, or This-Child-Is-Queen/Goddess, then what -CAN- we be sure about? Because our beliefs govern our very souls, and should not be compromised, regardless of political-correctness. My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7837 days, 11 hours, 30 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
re: Israel/Palestine It is said that we are to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. But that does not mean we must love the sins or the beliefs of our neighbor. If those beliefs could be potentially damaging to another, then either one or the other must be removed. Such as it is with the Palestinians and Israelis. The Palestinians are almost entirely Muslims, whereas Israel is mostly Jews and some Christians, right? Well, we must understand that the conflict is not over land, as it may seem, but rather religion. It is taught among Muslims that Jews and Christians must be beheaded; in the Koran, Surah 47:3-6 teaches "This, because the unbelievers follow falsehood, while the faithful follow the truth from their Lord. Thus God lays down for mankind their rules of conduct. When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly...." Now, two religions (Judaism and Christianity) acknowledge that it is Israel's -right-, by the Torah and the Bible, to have the land it sits upon, as in God's covenant with Abraham. There is no such decree in the Koran, AFAIK, that says Palestinians must be there, however it is the Muslim's right to kill in the name of Jihad, by the Koran. Now, lemme ask one thing, who should be displaced, the one who owns the house, or the one who wants to kill the owner? *I know it's more than 20 lines, but I can't summarize that thought any better* My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7837 days, 11 hours, 30 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
re: defense of God-placed governments Romans 13:1-2. As far as worldly concerns go, I would say: yes, go ahead and rebel. But that passage preceeds the need of rebellion. For sake of arguement, humor me here... Nazi Germany brought a weakened Europe, an entire continent, to its knees. America helped restore Europe. Which helped unite both North America and Europe, creating the League of Nations, and UN. Through the uprising of vicious dictators, their elimination by one country or another leads to further unification (think elimination of Taliban has caused a political unification of the UN and Afganistan). Given time, this will aid to the unification of the world, which is the kingdom of Daniel 7:23, and it's leader mentioned in Revelation 13:7. Now, humor me here: wouldn't it make sense, that to achieve the end-goal of the millenial reign of Christ, that it would be easier to allow other nations to depose the dictator, and increase the world unity, as opposed to the people kicking the guy out, increasing the individual nation's self-reliance. My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7837 days, 11 hours, 30 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
And as for Haiti, I've never actually read anything on it... perhaps in the next few days I'll find some time to. My signature is umop apisdn. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 18 hours, 1 minute and 43 seconds ago. |
DW: Re Haiti I'm not sure if you are arguing seriously. You seem to be presenting an almost Hollywood-like image of slavery. Have you ever tried to build a boat? Do you know how much time, knowledge, health (The slave owners developed whips which were designed to strip flesh to the bone) and resources it takes? I won't comment on the idea of deciding to swim blindly from an island. A slave could commit suicide, but a) BMB,that is a sin, and b) you would likely be condemning those you left behind to beatings and/or death. I would consider ending your own suffering at the expense of others rather selfish and particularly immoral. I agree that there is always a choice, but IMHO, rebellion is a moral choice in such circumstances. [Edited 3 times, last edit on 9/18/2002 at 18:04 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 18 hours, 1 minute and 43 seconds ago. |
Re: Defense of Governments Your description seems similar to the idea that everything is part of God's plan. I have a problem with this. IMHO, it negates free will, and, by saying God planned and wants all this to happen, it holds God responsible for so much of the evil in the world. I hold to an idea obtained from Tolkien's Silmarillion. BMB, God can fit all things into Its plan. This is an important distinction. God did not orchestrate the evil of Nazi Germany or slavery. This was done by mankind. However, God can take the results of mankind's evil, and bring good out of it. If you truly believe a law/Government to be evil, I think you are more likely to be sinning if you do submit and do not rebel. You might have a stronger case, IMHO, if you said: "It is wrong to rebel against the government, simply out of a desire for power" or some such. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 18 hours, 1 minute and 43 seconds ago. |
Re: Beliefs and Discrimination People may use religion as an excuse for discrimnination, but discrimination is done out of self interest. This leads to the Crusades, the genocide of the Native Americans, the enslavement of blacks and the entire Israeli/Palestinian atrocity (From both sides). In all these cases, somebody claims to know God better than others, and uses this claim to further their own (selfish/political/cultural) ends. IMHO, we can be sure of nothing. We can only act as best we can, but should always acknowledge that we might be wrong. BMB, only God is infallible. To discriminate against another simply because of their religous beliefs is to say you have such a lock on the truth that you can condemn another and deprive them. In a sense you are claiming to know as much as God. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/18/2002 at 18:05 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 18 hours, 1 minute and 43 seconds ago. |
DW: Re: Palestinian/Israeli I am sorry that I sound so critical, but it does not sound like you have studied any of these religions you are critisizing. The Koran does not espouse jihads or holy wars. It also specifically tells Muslims not to kill other followers of the Book (ie. Christians and Jews) Also, note that your quotes talk of killing in battle, not instigating battle -- When the Koran was written, the surrounding (idol worshipping) people were trying to wipe the Muslims out. FYI, the Christian percentage of Palestinians is larger than the Christian percentage of Israelis. As for killing, I think both sides are guilty. The Israeli Gov't and military and the Palestinian Militants are both killing each other. The Israelis hate Palestinians out of fear, the Palestinians hate the Israelis out of despair. The Israelis fear suicide bombers. The Palestinian, in the face of malnutrition and oppression, despair for their future. [Edited 2 times, last edit on 9/18/2002 at 18:08 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 18 hours, 1 minute and 43 seconds ago. |
Re: Buddhism "refusal to bow to the whims of the flesh." Interpretation 1: "utter self denial and rejection of the world," Interpretation 2: "don't be controlled by your slightest desire." If one rejects all other religions without thought, simply for being different, then one can choose Interpretation 1. One can gloss over the fact that it says "refusal to bow down to" rather than "refusal to accomodate or acknowledge" and one can ignore the distinction between "whims" and "needs". Anatman: There is no self. We are not a single, constant unit. We are a combination of all our experiences and thoughts and motivations and more that are constantly changing. The you you are now is different from the you you were a moment ago. (RTFM :-) I do not see how Freud's ego relates) [Edited 4 times, last edit on 9/18/2002 at 19:33 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 18 hours, 1 minute and 43 seconds ago. |
BTW, another advantage of practicing 20 lines is that you learn how to leave enough room so that you can fit in the sarcasm and Irony. :-P |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7837 days, 11 hours, 30 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Re: Slavery. Because it isn't something I know a lot about... it's just opinions. The build a boat and swim, well, that was a desperate attempt at trying to find a point (not necessarily a good one, but just A point). What I mean, however, is that SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE has the ability to stop what happens. We must follow the laws of the country, UNLESS they break God's laws, as in it'd be okay to "rebel" if someone told you to kill someone else. I didn't mean suicide, but rather... just... dying. Simply because everyone must die sooner or later, it's just a matter of how and when. My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7837 days, 11 hours, 30 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Re: God's Plan. In the beginning (assuming), when He made the angels, He made Satan as well, and since God cannot sin, He needed someone to see whether people would just follow out of mindless faith (i.e. Satan's accusation of Job, that God had babied him), or if they followed out of true faith (Jesus resistance of temptation on the mountain). Now, it's Satan's job to make'em sin. Now God is perfect, and He only wants those who are sinless with Him. The only way this can happen is through the removal of sin, which occurs in accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. Now, if you read Revelation (with Daniel and Ezekiel, and the prophecies within), you will see that God wants to eliminate sin forever. The only way that can happen is with Armageddon, which will end with the death of unbelievers. God knew all this long before he began creating. Consider: If you wanted kids, won't you first plan how to raise them, and if they did wrong, how to punish them? My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7837 days, 11 hours, 30 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
re: believing a Government to be evil... I believe currently ALL governments (excluding maybe Fiji) to be evil. I cannot rebel against ALL of them, can I? It just isn't possible. So I submit to the laws that do not break God's laws, and I defy the laws that do. I do not rebel against the government. My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7837 days, 11 hours, 30 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
re: Crusades, etc, etc. You're right that they're all about religious arrogance. But regarding the Israeli/Palestinian thing, let's consider this, in a political sense: The entire REGION is filled with Muslims. Israel is a little haven for Jews and Christians. Is it truly necessary for the Palestinians to have the land the Israelis are on, knowing full well that their want to be there will cause war; but rather that their are neighboring countries that believe in the same religion as the Palestinians, and their introduction will (probably) not cause war. My opinion only, but if I lived in Watts, or Compton, CA (and knowing full well after looking in the mirror that I'm white ^_^) I would relocate myself to AVOID problems, not demand that I stay there because I want to be there. My signature is umop apisdn. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/19/2002 at 20:18 (GMT -5) by DarkWolf] |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7837 days, 11 hours, 30 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Re: Islam *forgive me, this might be a tad long... lotsa quotes, and I don't want to make mistakes in accuracy* Here's some quotes from http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html : Surah 2:216 "YUSUFALI: Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Surah 4:89 "YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks" Surah 5:51 "YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." Surah 8:12-14 : Too long to quote, nutshelled, Allah will instill terror into unbelievers, smite their heads and fingertips off; because they contend with Allah and his Messenger (Muhammed); those who resist Allah their punishment is fire. Surah 9:29 "YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Surah 9:30 "YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair[Ezra, added by me] a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" Surah 9:121 "YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him." Surah 48:29 : Too long to quote, nutshelled, those who are with Muhammed are strong against unbelievers but friends with each other. 9:5, 9:29, 47:4, 98:6 (as mentioned earlier, under the typo of 47:3), Hadith volume 4, book 52, number 176, there are others. You say that it does not espouse jihad. I say, it does by Surah 4:95. But you are right that they are forbidden to start it, however that right was allowed to Muhammed (9:73). But also consider that they are against polythiests, and they wrongly consider Christianity to be a polythiestic religion, that we elevate both Christ and Mary to the status of equal to God (which shows me Catholicism was around when Islam took root), because there's several mentions of Jesus as being Jesus, son of Mary (refusing to call Him what he was, son of God). Bottom line, that sounds to me that all those above Surah show "Don't start a fight, but continue the one Muhammed started". My signature is umop apisdn. [Edited 2 times, last edit on 9/19/2002 at 20:52 (GMT -5) by DarkWolf] |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7837 days, 11 hours, 30 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Okee, about Buddhism, I withdraw whatever I said about it. I studied it for a brief few months, yawned, and moved on. And I don't have a manual on Buddhism... ^_^ I spent a lot of time in the library as a child. I always assumed that it meant "there is no me; I don't REALLY exist". My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 7837 days, 11 hours, 30 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
re: Christian Jewish/Palestinian percentage Do you have an address where you learned that? Or perhaps a book name, or some other reference? My signature is umop apisdn. |
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