Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / Religious Beliefs
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 31 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
The "Religion God and all that Jazz thread was getting too long, so I am breaking out a sub-thread on personal beliefs. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 31 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Vallak Wrote: . . . I've heard every possible arguement for Christianity, and most of them against it. And like I said, none of them hold water. Do I believe in God/a God? Yes. Do I believe that humans are capable of knowing Her/Him/It? Yes, but most definitly not by merely believing that Jesus was the Son of God. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 2/13/2002 at 14:16 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 31 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Caladriel Wrote: So neither the arguments for or against Christianity hold water for you? . . . what is it that you do believe? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 2/13/2002 at 14:16 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 31 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Vallak Wrote: . . . My personal beliefs are really of no significance, but if you must know, I'm Buddhist. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 2/13/2002 at 14:17 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 31 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Caladriel Wrote: . . . Your personal beliefs are of great significance for me. I'd love to hear your take on Buddhism -- Nobody has ever asked about my beliefs (not surprising, since I ramble on interminably without being asked) but part of my faith is the belief in the existance of an ultimate Truth. I also believe that everybody knows this ultimate truth, deep down (in the soul, as it were) Hearing and thinking about other people's beliefs helps me get past my own fears, desires, emotions, etc. and helps me get closer to the Truth I believe to be out there. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 2/13/2002 at 14:17 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 31 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Vallak Wrote: . . . It's funny that you mention an "ultimate Truth" considering the basic principles of Buddhism are entitled "The Four Noble Truths." You should look it up. It's as Truthful as anything gets. <blank> (presumably Vallak) wrote: . . . I have no doubt that there is a God. I do not believe that he would do something as personal as getting directly involved in human affairs. [Edited 3 times, last edit on 2/13/2002 at 14:18 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 31 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Caladriel Wrote: V: Re: Buddhism It has been some years since I studied Buddhism. As I recall, the four noble truths centered around the feeling usually referred to as suffering: Its existance, its source, and avoiding/eliminating it. (Avoiding/eliminating is broken up into two ideas -- what it means to eliminate suffering, and how to eliminate it -- thus making four) I would love to hear your ideas on them. How did you come to be Buddhist? Were you raised with Buddhism, or did you adopt it later in life? By "Ultimate Truth," I meant that I do not believe Truth is subjective (although I think it is effectively subjective, since we rarely, if ever, can be certain that we know any particular Truth) Perhaps I should have said ultimate morality. [Edited 2 times, last edit on 2/13/2002 at 14:18 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 31 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Vallak Wrote: . . . I was not raised a Buddhist. I was born in Massachusetts and raised Protestant, if you want to call it being raised. I found everything on my own, and though I am by no means a perfect example, I do take my beliefs seriously. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 2/13/2002 at 14:18 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 31 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Caladriel wrote: IMHO, nobody is a perfect example, and I think it is great that you take your beliefs seriously . . . So what are your beliefs? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 2/13/2002 at 14:19 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 31 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Vallak Wrote: I'm not exactly clear on what you want to know. Tell me specifically so I have a better idea on how to answer this. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 2/13/2002 at 14:19 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 31 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
I just want to know any aspect of your beliefs you are willing to share. God? You believe that God exists, but that [It] doesn't get involved in human affairs. Why do you think God exists? (I do not mean to ask why does God exist, although I would be interested in your thoughts on that. Primarily, though, I am wondering why you have the belief that God exists) What do you think It is doing? What role did/does It play in the universe. Buddhism? Why did you adopt Buddhism -- that is, what about it attracted you? -- How would you phrase/describe the Four Noble Truths and the eightfold path? Do you seek enlightment? How do you define enlightenment (Do you believe the traditional aspects, hinderances and virtues?) These are just questions off the cuff. I would prefer to hear how you frame your beliefs, yourself, and how you would describe them. What defines them for you? [Edited 3 times, last edit on 2/13/2002 at 14:14 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Sengoku Registered user Last page view: 8141 days, 39 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
I hope not to interrupt or anything but I just want to drop my belief in too. Buddhism is the best religion I've ever studied. I was raised as a Christian but I have to say that beleif has to be felt within yourself, and not generated through the influence of others. With Buddhism it all makes sense to me, I feel that it is right for me personally and it was not forced upon me by bribes of eternal paradise or being sent to hell. With Buddhism everyone is equal and everyone has respect for eachother. Awareness is made on a different level ensuring that each person can follow thier path. Buddhism, in my oppinion is the religion of freedom. |
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Sengoku Registered user Last page view: 8141 days, 39 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
Please someone diagree with me, I won't take it badly I just want an opposing view to learn from. :) |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 54 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
I need no second invitation :) You are mostly going with "what feels right" when choosing religion--but what about "what IS right"--e.g., what is true and real? A religion can feel wonderful, but it could also be totally wrong... Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Jan Erik Administrator Last page view: 9 days, 4 hours, 25 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
Ah, but how do you know what IS right? That's the whole problem with religion. IMHO there is no proof to suggest that any one religion is "right". At best there is no proof to prove that a religion is false, but in the end it all come down to what you believe based on (very biased) information the varios religions provide. Unless God himself suddenly apear before you there is no way to be 100% sure (technicaly speaking). You may be convinced beyond a doubth that it is true, but that is not the same thing as it actualy beeng true. Granted some religions are more "believable" than others. For some reason I feel like modern witches, druids, Odin worshippers and so on are more into "role play" than actual belief. Seems to be some people pick religions to help build up theyr "immage" (a lot of extreme nationalists "worship" the old norse gods for example), not because they actualy believe in them (or so I think) (they may take theyr "beliefs" seriously, but I doubht many of them would stand up for them it things got inconvenient). But when it realy comes down to it, how do you know that a religion is totaly wrong? As long as a religion avoid claiming that the world is different than it actualy is (like claiming that the Earth is the center of the universe or that the Earth is flat) you can't realy do much more than note that it "feels wrong". Jan Erik Mydland HoF admin |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 54 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
I guess I see religion differently from you: I have always seen it as a much more solid, real thing, to which the rules of logic should apply--more like history than myth. If one starts with this presupposition, it is possible to evaluate the claims of various religions by their basis on measurable reality. It is of course impossible to say that one is definitely right, and another is definitely wrong (because, for one, history is a science of probability; and for another, because every source you work with will be biased); however, I believe it is possible to put various religions in a "courtroom" of sorts and judge whether or not, "beyond a reasonable doubt", each is valid or not. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Gyr Returned Unregistered user |
The question is, when this is done, will you accept the answers? |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 54 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
I did. That's why I'm a Christian. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 31 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Sengoku: Can you elaborate on your Buddhist beliefs? My first non-copied post (the 11th in this thread) could be directed to you, as well as Vallak. How did you come to know Buddhism? I do not know if I would say Buddhism is free of bribes. From what I have read, it seems to offer enlightenment is the place of suffering. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 2/21/2002 at 12:37 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 31 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Iridia: Sengoku said that he follows Buddhism because it feels right, not, as I think you imply, because it feels good. Do you have any particular disagreements with Buddhism? Personally, I agree with using feelings as a yardstick for a religion's validity, since I think that there is an ultimate moral code that we all know, somewhere inside. On the whole, my only major disagreemnent with Buddhism, from what I understand of it, is the lack of God -- Although some interpretations place Buddha in the position of God -- My understanding is that, in Buddhism, the journey to enlightenment can only be accomplished alone. I see that as akin to telling a child who has just been mugged to not tell its parents -- yes, the child may be able to handle the emotions, information, etc. without help, but I see that as unlikely, and I think great harm can come to the child from such an attempt. [Edited 4 times, last edit on 2/26/2002 at 09:32 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 54 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
Caladriel--Exactly. When I see the world around me--the people who abuse their own children; drive-by shootings that kill innocent people; people who bomb buildings--I see that people are not, by themselves, able to do good. It just isn't in the human race to be "good people". In all of us, there's the desire to be "good"; but that's impossible--no one has done it. Trying to acheive enlightenment on your own is just like trying to bootstrap your way to Heaven. It doesn't work--you need outside help. In the case of Christianity, that help comes from a God who is absolute good, who created us (in the beginning) with the potential to be good or evil, and who's willing to pardon the bad that's in us, and the bad we've done. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Jan Erik Administrator Last page view: 9 days, 4 hours, 25 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
I don't share your pesimism when it comes to the human race Iridia. Most of the trouble we see around us is a result of the way our society, works. Poverty and lack of education and so forth lead to angry, bitter and - well dumb people. If everyone had a deacent change to live a good life I think things would have been a lot better. But as things are a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch, because people band together in gangs and what not to protect themselves from other gangs and so on and you end up with a whole lot of groupings who have little or now respect for anything besides force and violence. The rest of society try to protect themselves by beeng "though on crime", wich only further alienate people who are unfortuate enough to live in the poor areas because they feel opressed...IMHO just about everyting bad that happens can be explained by looking closely at the sosiety the "evil ones" come from. Most of the time people who we think of as pure evil are just acting against what they see as opression or unfairness. Not that I think that excuse them in any way, but just because someone commit a horrific crime and should be punished doesn't mean we should not try to understand what made them do it. Labeling them as "evil" is just a convenient way to avoid thingking about it... I think people are prefectly capable of finding theyr own way without any divine father figure to nudge them in the right direction once in a while. Sure people make mistakes and do stupid things, but beeng religions can in no way protect people from themselves anyway... One might argue that if everyone was christian there would be no evil in the world. It might even be true, but when again if everyone where Nazies the world would also be a better place. As long as everyone agree and no one is different people get along just fine no matter what they believe in... The way I see it there are two options for total world peace. Either someone have to conquer the world and exterminate everyone who disagree with them (not a ideal solution IMHO), or we have to focus more on education and udnerstanding. Lack of understanding lead to fear, fear lead to intollerence, and intollerence lead to violence (man, I sould like Yoda here). I'm in favour of the last one. If we spend more time tryign to see things from the neighoubrs point of view and figure out what makes him tick isntead of figuring out how to protect ourselves in case the neighbour try to kill us things would be a lot better overall... Jan Erik Mydland HoF admin |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 54 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
"Yoda"--I'm not talking just about the horrible things people do, like child abuse and bombings. I'm talking about little stuff too--holding grudges, breaking your word, being selfish. The sort of stuff everybody does. Environment does determine whether or not we go to the extreme end of evil--like people who join gangs because there's nothing else to live for, or people who decide to become suicide bombers because they're told it's "right". But in my opinion, even people with perfect environments will do things that are wrong--and how do you explain rich, well-cared-for, "perfect" people, who end up getting involved in crime? Why is there more crime in America, where the standard of living is quite high, than in many--even most--third-world countries? Why did crime rates go down during depressions and recessions in American history? With so many chances to fix our problems, we have only managed to become more technologically advanced--not necessarily more civilized. Why is that? I think it's because people are, whether because of "animal instincts" (for the evolutionist) or "fallen nature" (for the Creationist), basically evil. Not good, not neutral. And it includes everyone, from Saddam Hussein to Mother Teresa. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 31 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Jan: So much for 20 lines. :-) I don't think Iridia was claiming that we should all be the same -- pressing for Christianity does not mean kill those who are not. As for my thoughts: when I was saying people need God, I wasn't referring to people needing God to tell them to do good and to act morally, or needing God to give them the strength to do so. I was thinking of the fact that God is a source of peace and joy and, in times of trouble, support. Hmmm, indirectly, this may lead to what I view as a more righteous lifestyle (kindness, compassion, etc.) since many of the atrocities in this world seem to have their roots in fear and despair. |
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Jan Erik Administrator Last page view: 9 days, 4 hours, 25 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
Yeah, ok people are flawed, selfish and all that by nature. However beeng christian doesn't change that. Christian people are just as flawed as everyone else. The only difference is that people who believe in much the same values as christianity are often attracted to the religion, while people who couldn't care less are not. Besides trying to lead a moreal life and getting a bad contience if you have done something wrong is not something that is reserved for religions people eitehr. A lot of people live perfectly "good" and virtous lives without the need for any God to empower them to do so. There are bad people who are christian and good people who are not (and vice versa naturaly). That's one of the reasons I don't believe in relgions. If you take away the supernatural bit (wich I don't believe in), most religiosn have a rather poor track record in living up to the values they preach about... So I prefeer to just follow my own moral compass (wich would probably fit right into most liberal christian comunities) without all the extra "fuss". Religion is one way to "guilde" people into following the right path. Another and IMHO more effective (because it doesn't require people to believe in the existance of God and such), is better education for everyne (with focus on understanding and respecting others). Jan Erik Mydland HoF admin [Edited 1 time, last edit on 2/22/2002 at 23:02 (GMT -5) by Jan Erik] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 31 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Jan: Without the supernatural, which you don't believe in, how does one determine what is "good" and "bad"? How could one say if we should stop the Taliban treatment of women, or the serbian slaughter and rape of muslims, or the Nazi genocide of Jews and Gypsies? For a less extreme (and politically resolved) example, why should I not steal, if I can get away with it? If the universe is purely physical, than what difference is there between a human and a bird or tree . . . or piece of stone? This does not mean that one must follow a particular religion to know right from wrong. By my belief, God has given us all souls (which are supernatural) wherein we know right from wrong. Thus, BMB, God tells people what is right and wrong, regardless of their belief. |
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Jan Erik Administrator Last page view: 9 days, 4 hours, 25 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
Well I can only speak for myself, but I have a sense of right and wrong, and I don't go around stealing even if there is no chance to get chought... Humans are social creatures, and for there to be a cosiety there have to be laws and rules and common moral ground (I think I have been ranting on about that in some length in another thread). It's pretty much built into us from nature to try and maintain a level of respect from our peers. Granted a few people break the norm and commit crimes, either out of desperation or because they feel they have nothing to loose or some of the reasons I mentioned earlier, but again, religion have never proven to be much good at preventing crime... Point is. Morality and self restraint is something that is part of all humans. You don't need to believe in something supernatural to believe that stealing and killing is wrong. That's how I see it anyway. If everyone who where not religions ran rampant stealing, killing and raping all the time the human race would have been long extinct by now... Sure you can agrue that God is the one that "programemd" us to have a contience and such in the first place, wether we know it or not. I can't prove you wrong, but I don't believe it myself. IMHO our moral and etical ideas are much like the instincts we see elsewhere in nature. Some things are just there from the start without anyone teaching it to you. Just like wolves have a "built in" respect for the dominant male that ensure the sucess of a wolf pack, we have a "built in" moral "core" that ensure that we are more inclined to work together than prey on each other. Granted it's far from perfect, but it's there it just get's a little whacked out of place sometiems ("Homor among thieves" and all). Jan Erik Mydland HoF admin |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 31 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Jan: Heh, I wouldn't say "programmed" because of the connotations, but yes, I would say that God granted us a common knowledge of right and wrong, regardless of whether you believe in God or follow a religion. Thus, I agree that one doesn't have to believe in something to know right from wrong. Is morality an instinct? Are humans purely physical beings? Does a consience com from Nature, rather than God? Possibly, but one of my problems with that, aside from the fact that it makes humans only slightly different than pieces of rocks, is that whenever I follow the implications of that, I end up with "Might makes right." I'll try to keep this within 20 lines: Instinct is evolved -- survival of the fittest -- Wolves do not instinctively respect the alpha male; rather, they instinctively respect a stronger wolf that can beat the tar out of them. Any wolf without this trait does not last long enough to procreate (to pass the lack of this trait on to the next generation) However, as soon as a wolf can take command, it does, thus increasing its chance to procreate (to pass this "get it if you can get away with it" trait on) [Edited 3 times, last edit on 2/26/2002 at 09:31 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Gyr Returned Unregistered user |
Social animals still have -some- sort of inherent morality. Compare them, for instance, with solitary animals. Scorpions, for instance (depending on the kind, ofcourse), often attack each other on sight. Dolphins do not. A plethora of animals are known to experience distress when witnessing the dead remains of another of their respective species. Humans do not necessarily respect the alpha male either. Why else is it that harsh, material punishments are necessary for breaking laws? Why is it that we ascribe harsh penalities for killing within our society(ies) yet none for the soldiers we employ? Is conscience is supposed to come from God, why is it that there are thousands of different beliefs as to what is right and what is wrong? Conscience is partly instinctive, and partly an abstract social construction designed to suit a given authority (which can be a government, social class, corporation, association, church, etc). |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 31 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
D'oh! I shouldn't have let myself get pulled into the trap of comparing humans and animals when discussing morality. I have found that animals can be used to support any side of such discussions, depending on how one chooses to anthropormorphize them. As for differing ethics (beliefs), BMB, I think they arise from human wants, desires, fears, etc. We allow such things to to obscure our awareness of the Truth we know deep inside. Still, though I believe morality (truth) to be absolute, I think it is functionally relative -- how can one person be certain that their perception of Truth is less obscured than somebody else's? IMHO, the best we can do is try to assess our morals, judments, etc. sincerely to determine which ones we honestly believe, and which ones we wish to believe (or are afraid to doubt). |
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