Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / ADOM / Weapon balance in ADOM
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J. Registered user You'll never get rid of me Last page view: 5875 days, 32 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
Why are polearms the best weapons in ADOM? No, I'm not asking for statiscics showing their superiority to the other weapon classes. I know they're better. What I want to know is WHY has the polearm class been chosen for the be-all-end-all ultimate supreme form of melee combat in ADOM, and not some other class? Why did TB make polearms the best? Just look at the bonuses for the weapon classes: UNARMED FIGHTING 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 To-Hit Modifier 0 +1 +2 +2 +3 +3 +3 +4 +6 +6 +9 +10 +10 +10 +12 +12 To-Damage Modifier 0 0 0 +1 +1 +2 +2 +3 +3 +4 +6 +6 +8 +10 +10 +12 DV Modifier 0 0 0 0 +1 +1 +2 +2 +3 +3 +4 +5 +6 +8 +10 +12 DAGGERS & KNIVES 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 To-Hit Modifier 0 +1 +2 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +9 +10 +12 +14 +16 +18 +20 To-Damage Modifier 0 0 0 +1 +1 +2 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +10 +11 +12 DV Modifier 0 0 0 0 0 +1 +1 +1 +2 +2 +3 +3 +4 +4 +4 +5 CLUBS & HAMMERS 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 To-Hit Modifier 0 +1 +2 +2 +3 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +9 +10 +12 +14 +16 +18 To-Damage Modifier 0 0 0 +1 +1 +2 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +10 +11 +12 DV Modifier 0 0 0 0 +1 +1 +1 +2 +2 +3 +3 +4 +4 +4 +5 +6 MACES & FLAILS 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 To-Hit Modifier 0 +1 +2 +2 +3 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +9 +10 +12 +14 +16 +18 To-Damage Modifier 0 0 0 +1 +1 +2 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +10 +11 +12 DV Modifier 0 0 0 0 +1 +1 +1 +2 +2 +3 +3 +4 +4 +4 +5 +6 SWORDS 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 To-Hit Modifier 0 +1 +2 +2 +3 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +9 +10 +12 +14 +16 +18 To-Damage Modifier 0 0 0 +1 +1 +2 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +10 +11 +12 DV Modifier 0 0 0 0 +1 +1 +1 +2 +2 +3 +3 +4 +4 +4 +5 +6 AXES 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 To-Hit Modifier 0 +1 +2 +2 +3 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +9 +10 +12 +14 +16 +18 To-Damage Modifier 0 0 +1 +1 +2 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +10 +12 +14 +16 DV Modifier 0 0 0 0 0 +1 +1 +1 +2 +2 +3 +3 +3 +4 +4 +4 WHIPS 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 To-Hit Modifier 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +8 +10 +12 +14 +16 +18 +20 +22 +24 To-Damage Modifier 0 0 +1 +1 +2 +2 +3 +4 +5 +7 +9 +11 +13 +15 +17 +19 DV Modifier 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +9 +10 +11 +12 +13 +14 +15 POLEARMS 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 To-Hit Modifier 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +9 +10 +12 +14 +16 +18 +20 To-Damage Modifier 0 0 0 +1 +1 +2 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +10 +11 +12 DV Modifier 0 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +8 +10 +12 +14 +16 +18 +20 +22 TWOHANDED WEAPONS 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 To-Hit Modifier 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +10 +12 +14 +16 +18 +20 To-Damage Modifier 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 +6 +8 +9 +10 +12 +14 +16 +18 +21 +25 +30 DV Modifier 0 0 0 +1 +1 +1 +2 +2 +3 +3 +4 +4 +4 +5 +6 +8 STAVES 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 To-Hit Modifier 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +9 +10 +12 +14 +16 +18 +20 To-Damage Modifier 0 0 0 0 +1 +1 +2 +2 +3 +3 +5 +6 +6 +7 +8 +10 DV Modifier 0 +1 +2 +3 +5 +7 +9 +11 +14 +17 +20 +23 +26 +30 +35 +40Now, what conclusions can we draw from this table? 1) Unarmed bonuses suck. I think one could argue that the comparative increase in unarmed combat skill should increase your effectiveness just as much as skill in combat with weapons, but this isn't really important. The classes which use unarmed combat get additional bonuses to compensate. 2) 2H-weapons and staffs get big bonuses. This is all right in my opinion, because you can't use a shield with them. So for balance's sake this is OK. 3) Whips have arguably the best bonuses, which is ok IMO. Fighting with a whip untrained is probably the most ineffective compared to someone mastering the use of the whip. Really a moot point, nobody uses whips anyway. 4) Polearms > Everything else. The DV bonus is HUGE combined with a shield. This makes polearms superior to other 1-H weapons. In addition the polearm class has the most artifacts, including the most powerful weapon in the game, and one that's guaranteed, easy to get and quite powerful(rune-covered trident). Now, I think the DV bonus for polearms is that big because, like 2-handers and staves, some of them are 2-handed and probably deserve a good bonus. What I'd like to see is halved bonus for using polearms one-handed. I mean, sure, a big two-handed 10 ft spear is good for blocking and keeping the opponent away from you, but then again using a one-handed spear which is smaller isn't as useful. There is already a small bonus in place for those who use a 1-H spear without a shield, something like +4 to hit IIRC, so it shouldn't be too hard to code something like this in the game. Whaddaya think? Give your own opinions/suggestions. If you're feeling happy, don't worry, it'll go away. Originally posted by noob: "I'm everytime amazed how you people know to exploit every single little bug (or not-bug) for elaborated scumming tatics even if the feature seems completely useless or bad." [Edited 1 time, last edit on 1/11/2008 at 09:29 (GMT -5) by J.] |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4279 days, 6 hours, 20 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
I agree totally. Giving the same DV bonus for a one-handed worn spear as for a two-handed spear is pretty unrealistic. You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
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Maelstrom Registered user The Knight of the Black Rose Last page view: 3328 days, 1 hour, 7 minutes and 46 seconds ago. |
Because it IS the best weapon? If you've ever seen a guy with a sword try to fight a guy with a spear, you'd have some idea how much of a defense and offense a polearm gives you. It's fast, it has reach that gives you time to keep you oponent on his toes, while you simply stab him - he cannot counter attack if he lacks 15-30 cm of range to do so. You can also shorten your grip and use it in one hand; not as effectivly as in two, but that's reflected in game. And you still have a shaft to block with. If you're well trained with the use of a spear-like weapon in one hand, you can be really devastating in melee combat - I've once seen a guy who dual wielded a light spetum and a battle axe. No one could land a hit on him, simply because if anyone got close enough to do so, they'd either loose their shield in the proces, or their weapon. A pessimist sees a dark tunnel. An optimist sees a light at the end of that tunnel. A realist sees a train. And the train driver sees three idiots on the tracks. |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4450 days, 5 hours, 38 minutes and 34 seconds ago. |
Yeah, it's all about range. A spear lets you keep your distance between you and your enemy, giving you a big advantage. Spears have this sort of advantage in a lot of RPGs. However, they're not quite as powerful as you make out. Rune-covered trident is nice, but comes very late in the game if you're not Raven. TotRR comes even later, with a lot of effort that few people go to, and is so good you don't actually need much skill in it. The other spear artifacts range from average (scorcher) to pathetic (soaker). The *really* good weapon artifacts are the likes of Executor, Skullcrusher, Vanquisher, etc, which range over a number of weapon types. Powerful normal 1H spears are rare - you have to hope for an orc scorcher to supply something good, and even then it's vulnerable to fire etc. Arguably two-handeds get the best range of good weapons, both in terms of guarunteed artifacts, random weapons and random artifacts. Spears are good for the early game in terms of defence, especially for archers and wizards. And getting an okay one from an orc scorcher is generally the best guranteed way of getting a decent damage weapon very early on. But when I find something better I won't hesitate to switch. Polearms are far from the be all and end all of weapons - they're just the best generic weapon to have until you find something proper. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4279 days, 6 hours, 20 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
I want to see you block someone with a spear you wield in ONE hand. It simply isn't logical for that to be as effective as using a spear in both hands. You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
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noob Registered user Last page view: 6139 days, 8 hours, 50 minutes and 50 seconds ago. |
Sorry, but holding a spear in ONE hand and a shield in the other the only productive use that comes to mind is throwing it or sticking it into the ground letting the attacker run into it... Why are spears longer than swords? Because they are designed for TWO hands which lets you use lever physics to your advantage for extra speed, strenght and precision. In 1 hand it's just bulky and no way better than a sword... [Edited 1 time, last edit on 1/11/2008 at 13:25 (GMT -5) by noob] |
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4360 days, 10 hours, 55 minutes and 25 seconds ago. |
i can believe in one handed spear being effective defense. spear+small shield is still believable. but spear+heavy tower crystal shield is not something i imagine. IMO, shield severely limits usage of shield. probably limiting spear usage with up to regular shields (non large/tower) or cutting they bonus with larger shields could hold some balance. They still would be good option early on, but mdgame you would seriously think about switch. A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4450 days, 5 hours, 38 minutes and 34 seconds ago. |
A very effective battle tactic is to have a group of soldiers with large shields and long spears or pikes. Enemies can't get near them, and men in the second or third rows can attack at the same time as the first. Of course, that's a group combat thing - doesn't apply to ADOM. Light single-handed spears do exist. They're mostly thrusting weapons, with a small sweeping angle too. They're obviously not as powerful for attacks as big halberds that you can sweep in wide a wide circle. But defensively they're just as useful for parrying attacks and simply putting off the enemy (hard to get near someone with a longer reaching weapon). Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Nightmare Registered user Soul Calibur 2 Last page view: 4809 days, 19 hours, 43 minutes and 48 seconds ago. |
DG- The Romans actually discovered how to beat the Greek Phalanx with minimal casualties. The long spears and tight formation limited range of motion. "As for me, I feel priveleged to be among the only species able to make scientific inquiries." -unknown "Be sure to keep your distance if you don't have resistance." -DG |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4279 days, 6 hours, 20 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
All my knowledge about that is from playing Rome: Total War. If the opponent had Phalanx, winning was a question of getting around the Phalanx to hit 'em. You can do it with cavalry superiority. Otherwise, my knowledge in weapons is restricted to the fact that the swords in this game are too damn heavy. You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
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rmcin329 Registered user Last page view: 5426 days, 18 hours, 24 minutes and 19 seconds ago. |
about finding a better weapon and throwing a spear way in ADOM.......i've actually had(dont have the char anymore) a stone spear of devestation before, i can't recall its full stats but i know it was 5d8 + something, its been awhile. Admittably as it was stone it couldn't be improved but i'm sure you could probably find a normal spear of devestation that could be. |
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noob Registered user Last page view: 6139 days, 8 hours, 50 minutes and 50 seconds ago. |
The Phalanx was beaten by throwing spears from a hill which pierced the shields and pinned them together (Romans vs. Germans). So much for shields (well - they didn't make them from eternium). But I am a spear-shieldist in adom, too (although I think swords are more stylish). |
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4360 days, 10 hours, 55 minutes and 25 seconds ago. |
for all believing spears are not cool http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHStrI4jlQA beats any sword fight i have seen. Must admit there are no shields in sight. A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) |
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Maelstrom Registered user The Knight of the Black Rose Last page view: 3328 days, 1 hour, 7 minutes and 46 seconds ago. |
Me being the spear&shield shipper, it seems ironic, that my current char is an (early game) orcish barbarian born in Raven, who does NOT wield a spear. Infact, He's got weapon marks in axes (lvl7), clubs&hammers (lvl5) and daggers (low yet, but a dagger of death in hand). Spears are just lvl 4, from the starting one. Ofcourse, a tower crystal shield is used. Most likely THE ultimate stupidity of all - a dagger and a tower shield made out of some extremly heavey, brittle material. :) A pessimist sees a dark tunnel. An optimist sees a light at the end of that tunnel. A realist sees a train. And the train driver sees three idiots on the tracks. |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4450 days, 5 hours, 38 minutes and 34 seconds ago. |
Soirana: Sorry, but that spear fight is just unrealistic and overly choreographed (with far over-done sound effects). Of course a lot of movies with sword-fighting do the same. Seven Samurai is probably the best example of how sword fights should be done - tense, dramatic, but ultimately quite short. Oh, and for how to use a shield effectively in combat, see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvDfsjIuf34&feature=related (anyone who hasn't seen Rome is really missing out) Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." [Edited 1 time, last edit on 1/12/2008 at 03:18 (GMT -5) by Darren Grey] |
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4360 days, 10 hours, 55 minutes and 25 seconds ago. |
never said it was realistic A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) |
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Maelstrom Registered user The Knight of the Black Rose Last page view: 3328 days, 1 hour, 7 minutes and 46 seconds ago. |
More unrealistic then the spear fight. Severing a man's head with a shield is near to impossible. Let alone a musclebound gladiator's neck. The best he should do is crush his windpipe. Also - notice that the weapons were not really top notch. Gladius is a nice thing to have, but it lacks power; an axe or any medieval sword wouldn't be stopped by that thin, metal shield. Two hits and the shield's out. Otherwise it would weigh too much to be effectivly used in combat, never mind swinging it like that. [Wrote that while watching, so just let me smile at that clear arm severing, with a gladius of all things. ;P ] Bottom line - all of the weapons AND armour in ADOM are unrealistic. :P A pessimist sees a dark tunnel. An optimist sees a light at the end of that tunnel. A realist sees a train. And the train driver sees three idiots on the tracks. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 1/12/2008 at 07:31 (GMT -5) by Maelstrom] |
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noob Registered user Last page view: 6139 days, 8 hours, 50 minutes and 50 seconds ago. |
Come to think about it - the whole discussion about realism is pointless. I mean it's an ascii rpg utterly based on the players own fantasies. And the whole hitpoint-system used in almost ANY game is completely unrealistic. Weapons can't be designed to fit realism being restricted to hit, damage, pv and dv from the beginning. Adom is designed upon TB's imagination and fine as it is. Adjusting some dv-bonus won't add much fun to the game. And actually every weapon-combo can be quite stylish and effective if made from high-quality material and/or in the hands of a skilled master. Consider also that martial equipment in history wasn't usually high quality stuff for adventuring heroes but something fitting for mass-production and also about economycal issues. Having a large magical industructable artifact shield wheighting 0.5 kg with a bladed edge will win you the battle (and would cut necks)... |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4450 days, 5 hours, 38 minutes and 34 seconds ago. |
Maelstrom: Yeah, the fighting in Rome isn't particularly realistic, but by jove it's fun. I guess much the same can be said about ADOm... Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Maelstrom Registered user The Knight of the Black Rose Last page view: 3328 days, 1 hour, 7 minutes and 46 seconds ago. |
Pointless disputes over what is realistic and what isn't are just as fun :D A pessimist sees a dark tunnel. An optimist sees a light at the end of that tunnel. A realist sees a train. And the train driver sees three idiots on the tracks. |
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Nightmare Registered user Soul Calibur 2 Last page view: 4809 days, 19 hours, 43 minutes and 48 seconds ago. |
Did anyone see the scene in that movie "Underworld" where the vampire was dual wielding whips? Now that takes SKILL! Of course, he was killed by a werewolf, but hey, we've all been through that before. "As for me, I feel priveleged to be among the only species able to make scientific inquiries." -unknown "Be sure to keep your distance if you don't have resistance." -DG |
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rmcin329 Registered user Last page view: 5426 days, 18 hours, 24 minutes and 19 seconds ago. |
hehe werewolfs are so weak that even my low lvl chars kill them without much effort. I don't think i've ever actually had one kill me in ADOM. |
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J. Registered user You'll never get rid of me Last page view: 5875 days, 32 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
Have fun fighting a werewolf lord in a mixed vault on PC:6 with a low level char :) Oh and nice discussion everyone! If you're feeling happy, don't worry, it'll go away. Originally posted by noob: "I'm everytime amazed how you people know to exploit every single little bug (or not-bug) for elaborated scumming tatics even if the feature seems completely useless or bad." [Edited 1 time, last edit on 1/12/2008 at 15:59 (GMT -5) by J.] |
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Battle bunny Registered user I'm just that cool Last page view: 6038 days, 1 hour, 56 minutes and 13 seconds ago. |
Or, what I had: Have fun fighting a WEREWOLF LORD TENSION ROOM IN THE VILLAGE DUNGEON! That. I think it was VD at least, or maybe it was low-level COC? (\_/) (o.0) (> <) ( / \ ) Don't click this http://www.mindistortion.net/iwantyoursoul/?i_am=Darkcutter |
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rmcin329 Registered user Last page view: 5426 days, 18 hours, 24 minutes and 19 seconds ago. |
*shrugs* it just provides good bolt spell practice. Or staves marks if ones been found yet |
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Battle bunny Registered user I'm just that cool Last page view: 6038 days, 1 hour, 56 minutes and 13 seconds ago. |
Oh. WADOMF. I think you're yet to meet a higher werewolf. (\_/) (o.0) (> <) ( / \ ) Don't click this http://www.mindistortion.net/iwantyoursoul/?i_am=Darkcutter |
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rmcin329 Registered user Last page view: 5426 days, 18 hours, 24 minutes and 19 seconds ago. |
No i've met werewolf lords too, point is they're just plain weak, and so are the monsters that they summon. |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4450 days, 5 hours, 38 minutes and 34 seconds ago. |
Werewolf lords can be trouble at low levels, and werewolf kings can spell a very quick death. A spellcaster with decent offensive magic might have an okay time, but any average char will have trouble. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Battle bunny Registered user I'm just that cool Last page view: 6038 days, 1 hour, 56 minutes and 13 seconds ago. |
Did you know that my current very lucky level 19 archer who is also a pro in swords can defeat a whole load of werewolf lords? Yes? Well, it wasn't my archer, it was a priest. And a lower level one too. The annoying thing is that once they notice you, they surround you with their summons. Same thing with when you go for the Phial of Caladriel with a semi-strong non-magic user in the Gremlin Cave. You'll regret going in, and not necessarily because they are so strong. (\_/) (o.0) (> <) ( / \ ) Don't click this http://www.mindistortion.net/iwantyoursoul/?i_am=Darkcutter [Edited 1 time, last edit on 1/12/2008 at 17:51 (GMT -5) by Battle bunny] |
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Nightmare Registered user Soul Calibur 2 Last page view: 4809 days, 19 hours, 43 minutes and 48 seconds ago. |
Are there werewolf kings? My limited experience with werewolf lords showed me they were tough nasty monsters, with multiple attacks that hit reasonably hard, and a decent chance at critical hits or armor bypassing hits. Plus, they'll likely get a good bonus to hit thanks to having their minions surround you if you can't get to a corridor quickly enough. A higher DV than the average monster will make you miss a bit too. "As for me, I feel priveleged to be among the only species able to make scientific inquiries." -unknown "Be sure to keep your distance if you don't have resistance." -DG |
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