Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / Religion and all that Jazz
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
The Religous beliefs thread was getting too long for my tastes. I'm breaking out the couple threads that are still alive. Please try to keepposts to 20 lines. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/20/2002 at 13:36 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
Darkwolf wrote: re: defense of God-placed governments Romans 13:1-2. As far as worldly concerns go, I would say: yes, go ahead and rebel. But that passage preceeds the need of rebellion. For sake of arguement, humor me here... Nazi Germany brought a weakened Europe, an entire continent, to its knees. America helped restore Europe. Which helped unite both North America and Europe, creating the League of Nations, and UN. Through the uprising of vicious dictators, their elimination by one country or another leads to further unification (think elimination of Taliban has caused a political unification of the UN and Afganistan). Given time, this will aid to the unification of the world, which is the kingdom of Daniel 7:23, and it's leader mentioned in Revelation 13:7. Now, humor me here: wouldn't it make sense, that to achieve the end-goal of the millenial reign of Christ, that it would be easier to allow other nations to depose the dictator, and increase the world unity, as opposed to the people kicking the guy out, increasing the individual nation's self-reliance. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
Caladriel wrote: Re: Defense of Governments Your description seems similar to the idea that everything is part of God's plan. I have a problem with this. IMHO, it negates free will, and, by saying God planned and wants all this to happen, it holds God responsible for so much of the evil in the world. I hold to an idea obtained from Tolkien's Silmarillion. BMB, God can fit all things into Its plan. This is an important distinction. God did not orchestrate the evil of Nazi Germany or slavery. This was done by mankind. However, God can take the results of mankind's evil, and bring good out of it. If you truly believe a law/Government to be evil, I think you are more likely to be sinning if you do submit and do not rebel. You might have a stronger case, IMHO, if you said: "It is wrong to rebel against the government, simply out of a desire for power" or some such. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
Darkwolf wrote: Re: God's Plan. In the beginning (assuming), when He made the angels, He made Satan as well, and since God cannot sin, He needed someone to see whether people would just follow out of mindless faith (i.e. Satan's accusation of Job, that God had babied him), or if they followed out of true faith (Jesus resistance of temptation on the mountain). Now, it's Satan's job to make'em sin. Now God is perfect, and He only wants those who are sinless with Him. The only way this can happen is through the removal of sin, which occurs in accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. Now, if you read Revelation (with Daniel and Ezekiel, and the prophecies within), you will see that God wants to eliminate sin forever. The only way that can happen is with Armageddon, which will end with the death of unbelievers. God knew all this long before he began creating. Consider: If you wanted kids, won't you first plan how to raise them, and if they did wrong, how to punish them? |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
Caladriel wrote: Re: God's Plan I have a disagreement with what you consider to be God's Plan. You seem to claim that God wanted to see if mankind would sin. Such a claim implies that God did not know if mankind would sin or not. Personally, I believe God to be all-knowing, so It already knewthat we would sin. You also seem to claim that since God does not sin, It needed an intermediary to test mankind. Such a claim implies that there is something that God cannot do. Personally, I believe God to be all-powerful, so It is able to do anything, including testing mankind without sinning. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
Darkwolf wrote: re: Israel/Palestine It is said that we are to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. But that does not mean we must love the sins or the beliefs of our neighbor. If those beliefs could be potentially damaging to another, then either one or the other must be removed. Such as it is with the Palestinians and Israelis. <snip> Well, we must understand that the conflict is not over land, as it may seem, but rather religion. It is taught among Muslims that Jews and Christians must be beheaded; in the Koran, Surah 47:3-6 teaches "This, because the unbelievers follow falsehood, while the faithful follow the truth from their Lord. Thus God lays down for mankind their rules of conduct. When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly...." <snip> |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
Caladriel wrote: DW: Re: Palestinian/Israeli I am sorry that I sound so critical, but it does not sound like you have studied any of these religions you are critisizing. The Koran does not espouse jihads or holy wars. It also specifically tells Muslims not to kill other followers of the Book (ie. Christians and Jews) Also, note that your quotes talk of killing in battle, not instigating battle -- When the Koran was written, the surrounding (idol worshipping) people were trying to wipe the Muslims out. <snip> |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
Darkwolf wrote: Re: Islam <snip> Here's some quotes from http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html : < big snip of quotes from Surah 2:216, Surah 4:89,,Surah 5:51, Surah 8:12-14, Surah 9:29, Surah 9:30, Surah 9:121, Surah 48:29 > 9:5, 9:29, 47:4, 98:6 (as mentioned earlier, under the typo of 47:3), Hadith volume 4, book 52, number 176, there are others. You say that it does not espouse jihad. I say, it does by Surah 4:95. But you are right that they are forbidden to start it, however that right was allowed to Muhammed (9:73). But also consider that they are against polythiests, and they wrongly consider Christianity to be a polythiestic religion, that we elevate both Christ and Mary to the status of equal to God (which shows me Catholicism was around when Islam took root), because there's several mentions of Jesus as being Jesus, son of Mary (refusing to call Him what he was, son of God). Bottom line, that sounds to me that all those above Surah show "Don't start a fight, but continue the one Muhammed started". [Edited 2 times, last edit on 9/20/2002 at 13:32 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
Caladriel wrote: Re: Islam, Have you read and studied the Koran, or did you simply do a couple queries on some search engine? Your quotes are out of context, and nowhere does it say to kill Christians and Jews or start holy wars. The "Unbelievers" were the idolators trying to wipe out the Muslims, at the time. Muhammad is not told to start any wars. He was already in a war (for Islam's very survival and outnumbered, as well). Do you know how Islam started? What does Mary have to do with anything? For one thing, Catholicism does not elevate Mary to the level of God or even Christ. Secondly, the polytheism bit in the Koran is because of Christ worship. "Isa son of Marium" is used because the Muslims do not believe Jesus is the son of God. Unless you truly try to learn of a religion, how can you judge it? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/20/2002 at 13:33 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 9 hours, 19 minutes and 2 seconds ago. |
For the most part I tend to agree with Caladriel, here. Though I believe Islam is definitely not the way to get to heaven, neither is it by nature a violent religion. Those who use it as an excuse to kill "infidels" would find some other excuse if they weren't using misinterpretations of the Koran to justify their acts of terrorism. It's easy to take one verse out of context and make it sound damning. I've seen it done with the Koran often enough, especially by those who wish to villify all Muslims just for holding to a different belief system. It's easy enough to do the same with the Bible. For example, consider this verse: "O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us--he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks." (Ps 137:8-9) Easy to misinterpret, isn't it? That's the same thing that's being done to the Koran. If you want to find a religious excuse for violence, you can. By the way... the verse in question is part of a psalm (a poem) and describes the feelings of the author, not the command of God. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/22/2002 at 17:15 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
Guniea wrote: Re: Islam Caladriel: DW misunderstood those quotes... JUST LIKE THE MUSLIM DO. They read it, and understand that they have to fight with "unbelievers". So they do it. Fortunately, not all of them. They believe that if they die in a holy war, they'll go straight to heaven. Many of them are poor, discriminated, frustrated, so they happily blow things up with themselves. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
Guinea: Agreed, although I would say ". . . JUST LIKE SOME MUSLIMS DO . . ." It is dangerous to judge an entire people by the loudest among them. |
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Guinea Registered user tWo-HeAdEd cHaOs WeAsEl Last page view: 7179 days, 18 hours, 13 minutes and 10 seconds ago. |
Yeah, right. I meant no offence to those "normal" Muslim. Sorry if there is any Muslim around here and felt offended. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
:-) I wasn't concerned about offense. I just thought it was something we should keep in mind. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
Darkwolf wrote: re: Islam, I do make an effort to understand it, however consider that a modern Muslim (not one who deeply studies the history or whatnot) might consider that an "unbeliever" could be "one who does not believe the message of Muhammed", in which case could include Jews and Christians in with Pagans and Polytheists. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
Darkwolf wrote: re: Mary, I've read snippets where Mary was called co-Mediatrix, the term being first used in the 8th century and a nickname, if you will, by the 17th century. I have also heard her called "Queen of Heaven"... to me that sounds as if she sits at the right hand of God. In any case, I refered to Catholicism, because they were the driving force of the expansion of Christianity, and most probably the originating Christian-backbone of Islam |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
Darkwolf wrote: re: God's sinless nature. I feel that it is not that He CANNOT sin, but rather, WILL not sin. To prevent Him from breaking His own laws, He created Satan, who is free to sin at his leisure. When Christ is to return, mankind will be taught 1000 years without us having to worry about Satan. Afterwards, Satan is free one more time, then, when he is no longer needed because all the sinful people will be weeded out, the sin and Satan will be eliminated. Satan is a tool of God, just as the Seraphim, Cherubim, and messanger-angels are tools. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
Re: Islam What we read of the Koran is a translation from Arabic. According to every muslim with whom I have talked, "Unbelievers" should be translated to "one who does not follow the Book." The Koran may refer to Jews and idolaters (sp?) but it never lumps them all together as unbelievers. Find an Imam and ask him. He will tell you the same. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
Re: Mary Check your snippets again. There have been movements to elevate Mary, but they have always been shot down. Within the past couple years, the Vatican specifically stated that Mary is not on par with Jesus. BTW, I think that Islam was born from within a tradition that has roots in the time of Abraham. Christianity is not its backbone. Of course, according to Islam itself, it was a reteaching of the True Faith directly from God. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/23/2002 at 13:16 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
Re: God's Sinless nature I still don't see why God would need Satan in order to allow us to sin. You seem to say that in order to allow us to sin directly, God, Itself, would have to sin. Again, you are talking about what God needs. Since I think God is omnipotent, I do not believe It needs anything. Since we are not omnipotent, I don't think we can make claims to know Gods plan so exactly. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 9 hours, 19 minutes and 2 seconds ago. |
Caladriel, just curious... How come you refer to God as "it", rather than the traditional "he" (or in some cases "she")? Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Guinea Registered user tWo-HeAdEd cHaOs WeAsEl Last page view: 7179 days, 18 hours, 13 minutes and 10 seconds ago. |
Re: Mary Maybe Vatican specified that Mary is not on par with Jesus, but in Catholic church she's still much worshipped, maybe even more than Jesus Himself. There are things like rosaries organised in churches to celebrate her, some other things too, but I can't even name them. There are prayers to her. The priests ask her intercede for us, and so on.... |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 9 hours, 19 minutes and 2 seconds ago. |
Key word, "intercede". Catholic belief (unspoken, but there nevertheless) is that no one but a priest is really good enough to talk to God themselves, so they have to have "intercessors" do it for them. Mary's one of those saints that Catholics expect will get them in good with God if they ask her. The whole deal started in the Middle Ages, I think, with the priests as an elite class... anyway, the Catholic belief is that Mary, unlike Jesus isn't divine, but that she was sinless and can thus act as an intercessor. She's the most important Catholic saint. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/23/2002 at 18:21 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 8041 days, 12 hours, 25 minutes and 16 seconds ago. |
Re: Islam's skeleton. Metaphorically speaking, Judaism is the "feet and legs" of all three religions, having come first. Christianity would be the "backbone", defining much of the history of where Judaism went after the Jews stopped writing. Islam incorporates the local worship of the moon god Allah (while pushing away the rest of the pagan gods, including Allah's companion goddess Allat) into Christianity. As far as finding a Muslim out here, not likely. I'm in "the Bible Belt" of the US... and I don't like travelling outside of walking distance ^_^. My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 8041 days, 12 hours, 25 minutes and 16 seconds ago. |
Re: God and sin, consider the Garden of Eden. If God CANNOT sin, then He could not force the snake to lie. If God WILL not sin, then, I feel that He wouldn't break His own laws of sin (as of yet at this point in time unwritten), as proof of His perfection. So, God created something that WOULD sin, Satan. So hence, Satan forced the snake to lie to Eve. If Satan does not exist, then explain the snake to me; why does it lie? My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 8041 days, 12 hours, 25 minutes and 16 seconds ago. |
re:"Unbelievers" should be translated into "those who do not follow the Book". If that's what it SHOULD be translated into, then why isn't it? My signature is umop apisdn. |
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DarkWolf Registered user The Ravager Last page view: 8041 days, 12 hours, 25 minutes and 16 seconds ago. |
re: Mary, a couple more things, if Catholics don't raise Mary to at LEAST the status of Jesus, then why do they pray to her, asking for things from God that only she could get, and that Jesus couldn't? Why is it that I have seen more statues of Mary with baby Jesus (which oddly reminds me of a statue I once saw of Semiramis with Tammuz), than that of Jesus' crucifixion, or of ANYTHING he did in life. My signature is umop apisdn. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
Re: Mary Catholics pray to all their Saints. Mary just happens to be a rather universal saint. No Catholic claims to worship the Saint(s) they talk to. I have problem with that Priest aspect of Catholicism, so I don't trust my critisism of it. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
Iridia: I do not think God is a He or a She. Jesus has a gender, but God is not Biological. Even the statement that man was made in Its image does not give God a body, IMHO. I think that statement was symbolically talking about our souls. Also, the primary complaint most of my female friends have about Christianity is the chauvenism. I'll grant them that, thus nixing "He" but following that logic, I'm not about to give them a "She." I always wondered if anybody here noticed. :-) |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 32 seconds ago. |
Re: Sin I think you have a situation similar to the Chicken or Egg quandry: Why did the snake sin? You imply because Satan sinned. Well, why did Satan sin? By your logic, would not God have had to create something to cause Satan to sin. But then God would have had to create something to cause that thing to sin. And so on, and so forth. I think God created something that could sin when It created mankind. God didn't need to go any levels higher, BMB. BTW, don't forget that I do not take the story of the Garden literally. I think it is an analogy describing how mankind developed it soul and, thus, its knowledge of right and wrong. |
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