Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / Religion and all that Jazz
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
Re: Sin I think you have a situation similar to the Chicken or Egg quandry: Why did the snake sin? You imply because Satan sinned. Well, why did Satan sin? By your logic, would not God have had to create something to cause Satan to sin. But then God would have had to create something to cause that thing to sin. And so on, and so forth. I think God created something that could sin when It created mankind. God didn't need to go any levels higher, BMB. BTW, don't forget that I do not take the story of the Garden literally. I think it is an analogy describing how mankind developed it soul and, thus, its knowledge of right and wrong. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 9 hours, 25 minutes and 25 seconds ago. |
Caladriel-- Makes sense. Like I said, "he" is traditional. I don't think God has a "gender" if you're referring to biological gender. A lot of languages use male, female, and neuter pronouns to refer to essentially genderless objects. Maybe Hebrew and/or Greek are among them? At any rate, if English uses "he" it's probably to emphasize authority. Traditionally, the male is the head of the household, the leader of a country, whatever... Of course, today that's changed. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 9 hours, 25 minutes and 25 seconds ago. |
re. Satan's sin: Here's my idea-- What God created wasn't something that "caused" Satan to sin. He created something that enabled Satan to choose between right and wrong: free will. That meant that God gave up the right to decide what Satan did. Evil isn't really an entity in itself... it's the absence of good. What doesn't exist materially doesn't need a cause. An origin, but not a cause. :) Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
Re: Connotations of Gender That is actually another reason I use the gender neutral pronoun. I don't like the stereotypes associated with gender nor do I want to encourage them. I trust the authority and leadership of many women, and I know many men who are wonderful nurturers (And men who can't handle authority and women who are lousy nurturers) |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
Re: Satan I agree with you about free will, but I would apply that to mankind, as well as Satan (if it exists). God gave mankind free will. Therefore, I do not believe It needed Satan for anything, let alone to make mankind sin. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/24/2002 at 08:55 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 9 hours, 25 minutes and 25 seconds ago. |
I agree, Caladriel; Satan didn't "make" us do anything. It was our choice to start down the path of evil... all we needed was the information (the "knowledge of good and evil") that Satan recommended to Eve--just like it isn't because pushers exist that you get hooked on drugs; it's your own decision to try it the first time, no matter who suggests the idea to you. Eve and her husband made their own decisions... now we're stuck with it. Go figure. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 1 time, last edit on 10/2/2002 at 00:37 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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Lazy Cal Unregistered user |
:-D I like your phrasing of that last bit too much to argue about how literally I think we should take the first bit of Genesis. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
In "Perceptions of Time and Space" Ragnarok wrote: What I would like to know: 1. God knows everything, right? That means past, present, future. God knows what choices you will make in life, how it will affect yourself and everyone else, and in the end, if you will believe in him. 2. God knows us before we are even born, and where we will go when we die. So why does God create beings who will go right to Hell? He knows their outcome and the choice they will make, since he himself programs it into us. Our whole path is predetermined by God (apparantly), since God creates us all, including our lifeline. When you choose to go right instead of left, that was what you were meant to do, so to speak. So why would God "program" people and put them on this earth who he will only send to hell for all eternity? He knows what will happen, and if they will redeem themselves before they die. I would like to know why he creates doomed people. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
In "Perceptions of Time and Space" Iridia wrote: God created beings who were capable of choosing either good or evil. He did not, however, "program" which they were going to choose. He did know in advance, but there is nothing in a person from the start that forces them to make either choice. Like you and I know the sun is going to rise tomorrow, but we didn't cause it. It's admittedly a bit difficult to understand. But remember that God doesn't live in time. It's a totally different reference frame. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
Ragnarok: Answer to Guinea's similar question Short form: BMB, God may know what you are going to do, but It does not cause you to do what you do. Does that make any sense? If so, your question becomes: "Why would God create people It knows will not reach salvation?" (whatever you believe salvation to be) Perhaps such people still deserve to exist, even if the choices they make during that existance will doom them. (whatever you believe it means to be 'doomed') [Edited 2 times, last edit on 10/14/2002 at 11:37 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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feilos Unregistered user |
God is kinda like a communist, he treats everyone alike in heaven and everyday the angels adore and praise him...God gave angels free-will and the devil gladly took it...the devil envied god's power,I think he was tired of serving God and was sent away...so he convinced other angels to rebel. I've heard a story on the garden of eden...but I can't believe this perfect garden of Eden, Satan can exist in it...so much for God's perfect paradise...I wondered why he even put a tree of knowledge in the first place... the Devil is a bablyonian idea, that the chruch took. The horns and stuff was in Pagan religions too. If fact back then they knew that 'Horns represented power given by God'. Hence Alexander the Great was rumored to have horns, and other pagan creatures did too...I wondered if that is why there are horned caps and helmets? |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
What does Communism have to do with treating everybody alike? |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 9 hours, 25 minutes and 25 seconds ago. |
Not much, except in theory. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
IMHO, treating everybody equally is more a trait of Democracy. Communism deals more with common ownership of all goods (vs private ownership of goods) |
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feilos Unregistered user |
communist is like living in a commune, popular in the 1800's and 1900's (there were even groups in the USA that practiced this, some even go as far as sharing child rearing and sexual partners)...It's a community that shares it's resources, and everybody gets an equal share in things...in theory it works...but human greed (materialism) can easily corrupt it all. Lazy people will live off this community's work...then the whole system fails. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
In Perceptions of Time and Space Luke wrote: "Our whole path is predetermined by God(apparantly), since God creates us all, including our lifeline." This statement is really depressing, if God existed would he really be in charge of shaping our whole lives? What kind of freedom is that? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 10/29/2002 at 19:29 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
Iridia wrote: -- Luke No, the concept of God does not necessitate his complete control of everything that exists. The Christian concept of God (which is what I believe) states that God allows man free will, and, though he knows in advance what we'll choose, our decisions depend wholly on us. God has the power to control everything but chooses not to; he doesn't want a human race of robots. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
Luke: Re: Lifelines. I agree. I think it is a very depressing statement. It would depress me even more if I believed it, since it does not allow for freedom. Do you believe it? Personally, I do not. It does not make sense to me. I responded to it above and (more fully) in an Answer to Guinea's similar statement [Edited 2 times, last edit on 10/29/2002 at 19:44 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
In Perceptions of Time and Space Damon wrote: God is more of an abstract form, God doesn't actually take form in this dimension, so in one sense he doesn't exist, but he's with us with our connection with him. God is more a symbol than anything, we could believe him to be anything, from an elephant with 6 arms to a great Greek lord that fires lightening from his fingers. It's what God or symbol represents that gives the form it's existance. God is a symbol of purity and good as with the Devil as curruption and evil. We follow either as we have freedom, even freedom to create our own God and worship him in our own way. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
Damon: Why do you you believe God does not take form in this dimension? As for being a symbol, I think that goes to the heart of many debates. Does God exist on Its own, or does a person create (or accept) the idea God, and infuse this idea with meaning. In the end, it usually comes down to belief, but I have to ask you, if we created the idea of God, why did we infuse the idea with the ideals that we did? |
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 Damon Registered user Last page view: 7946 days, 6 hours, 23 minutes and 52 seconds ago. |
I believe that things we cannot percieve via our 5 senses and doesn't take form as a physical entity does not exist in our dimension. Things on the spiritual plane such as spirits, Gods, angels, deamons and any other phenomenal entities exist in another dimension that we can only be aware of in other certain ways. I believe God exists in his own realm without us but in this dimension humans in general have a lot of distance from him, hence why evil seems to be currupting this world so much and why he does not aid us much and why religions lack accuracy. Our individual (hence abstract) connection with him by praying, meditating, dreaming, admiring nature, being venerable etc however can bring strength because it brings us slightly closer to him. Enforcing rules and codes in Gods name is wrong, we all should act on our own insight of God and form a religion naturally. As a symbol God can exist almost exist everywhere, but only in a unique abstract way that has deep connect (symbols are powerful to our subconscience). I believe what I feel, not what I read in potentially bullshit books. Gods lies within and not through material or poeples visions of order. The ideals exist because something as powerful as the concpet of God can be turned to control people, but long-term it just won't appeal to everyone. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
Kind of like Plato's (Socrates'?) World of Forms. (Not exactly, but reminiscent) So, in a sense, you believe that God actually exists, independant of our beliefs (and separated from us) but also, that we have created a symbolic God(s) which we infuse with what we glean from the actual remote God. I may not agree with your idea of God's existance being remote (Personally, I believe God has extensive interaction with this world, but that is based on my own life experiences) but I am very intrigued by your thoughts on our perception of God. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 11/1/2002 at 10:18 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Damon Registered user Last page view: 7946 days, 6 hours, 23 minutes and 52 seconds ago. |
I'd like to believe that God has extensive interaction with this world but I find that his distance is relative to the individual, not universally. I find that he'd only interact with certain believers and not actually physically to make any difference to this world at all. He could save a few lives if the humans death was unjustified. If I were a God, I'd see that in taking away someones gift of life by murder wasn't fair and would prevent it. But I would not take away free will, just the effect of it if it imposed upon anothers freedom. No human would disturb my gift to another! I have known Christians who go to church and say they believe in God but they seem so miserable with life in general. I believe that true belief is not triggered by hopes of going to heaven and fear of going to hell, but unconditional faith triggered just by being happy to be alive. One reason I really hate religion is the way it can force people to believe by threats of hell and rewards of heaven. I think at least to make positive ripples on this planet should define ones faith and not devotion of attending church every Sunday. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
Re: God's view of Death A comment in DAMON's post made me think of this. I do not believe God views a person's death as a terrible thing. I think we feel sad at a friend's death because, at least at some level, we do not believe in an afterlife, and we fear our friend's existence is ended. Even with a belief in the afterlife, we feel sad because our friend is now separated from us. I am rather certain God believes in an afterlife. As for separation, wouldn't a moral (repentant) person's death bring them closer to God? It might be God is more saddenned by an "evil" or unrepentant person's death because that person is now separated from God in death -- dunno how that works. Can one redeem oneself after misisng salvation? God might be saddenned in empathy of our (the living's) pain at a person's death, but not for It's own pain. [Edited 3 times, last edit on 11/6/2002 at 17:31 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Greatr White Unregistered user |
In my belief we have many lives on Earth, each time we live again we are stronger since we have evolved our soul just a bit more. Those that get distracted by material pleasures grow attatched to them and are weaker in the next life. Eventurlly our soul transcends or descends and leaves this realm altogether. Unlike other beliefs I feel there are many stages of heaven and hell. Each one gets us closer to our to what we are. |
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C Registered user Last page view: 6504 days, 45 minutes and 50 seconds ago. |
You go Greatr White! Someone has the idea! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 11/8/2002 at 12:02 (GMT -5) by C] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4907 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
Greatr White: Reminiscent of Buddhism. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 9 hours, 25 minutes and 25 seconds ago. |
Definitely. And I have to say it makes no sense to me... not really. Why should we necessarily live more than one life, rather than just one? Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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C Registered user Last page view: 6504 days, 45 minutes and 50 seconds ago. |
For your soul to gain more experiance, wisdom, (no time, class) really I'm doing some religion searching. PS and No offense you look like my Aunt Debbie. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 9 hours, 25 minutes and 25 seconds ago. |
If you can't remember your past lives, why should you gain wisdom from them? Wisdom comes from experience, and experience from memory, after all... And PS ;) I look like a lot of people. I have a very generic sort of face... Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 1 time, last edit on 11/9/2002 at 18:42 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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