Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / Jedi with Christianity
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7317 days, 13 hours, 31 minutes and 38 seconds ago. |
Religion is a great subject to debate upon and I wanted to start one here again since the others have fizzled out. Well anyway, according to the bible (known as God's word) the only way to be saved is through Jesus, by becoming a Christian you let give yourself to Jesus and he saves you? Well anyway, a Jedi who follows the light side must control his emotions by staying calm and attain powers to help him combat evil. This religion is not really serious but has become official and now has more followers than Buddhists and Sihks. My debate is that despite doing good deeds and putting yourself in danger without any promise of eternal paradise, the Jedi, according to the bible are sent straight to hell as they have not been saved. I have been other rooms and debated and many Christians vouch for this, but what do the Christians here say? Can you see how this might be a little harsh? Don't both religions strive the same thing, light and good? LS |
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Ryan Klein Registered user Because I said so is why! Last page view: 1661 days, 9 hours, 15 minutes and 26 seconds ago. |
almost all religions do that I think. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 13 hours, 48 minutes and 3 seconds ago. |
Personally, I disagree with your biblical interpretation (and, apparently, that of the other Christians with whom you have spoken) BMB, the Bible says that nobody is worthy of salvation in and of themselves, but, because of Jesus' sacrifice, anybody can be forgiven and granted salvation. The idea is that you have to truly repent and sincerely ask for forgiveness. If a Jedi lead a perfect life, never doing "sinful" acts, then s/he would reach salvation. However, if s/he had "sinned" s/he could not atone or make up for "sinning" by doing "good" acts. S/he would still have to repent for the "sins" s/he had done. I do not believe that leading a perfect life is humanly possible. An extreme example: if a soldier rapes and murders somebody, can the soldier make up for that by donating money and time to charity? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 3/5/2003 at 13:57 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 13 hours, 48 minutes and 3 seconds ago. |
P.S. Jedi is not an official religion. No gov't gives it tax exempt status. It is simply a grand prank pulled on the census takers and coordinated via the internet. P.P.S. Jedis repress all emotions -- Hatred and love -- They do not do "good" so much as they maintain the peace. P.P.P.S. Is the 20 line rule in effect for this discussion? |
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C Registered user Last page view: 6299 days, 19 hours, 30 minutes and 58 seconds ago. |
Not anymore... (P.P.P.S.) On subject, I strongly belive (what I say) (..) that people do whatever, if that's right to them it is. Now if ye wants everything to be based on Christianity then, as long as that person is good. Now that extreme example, they might have to do better than charity (by a quite bit, but I'm no judge.) |
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Jan Erik Administrator Last page view: 3 days, 10 hours, 20 minutes and 12 seconds ago. |
Well if we for the sake of argument is to say that Christianity is correct, when by definition those who do not (or at least choose not to) believe in Christ will not be "saved"... Wether or not that means they'll go to hell no matter what, or simply won't get into the "VIP" area of theaven is anyones guess... Going either to heaven or hell have always seemed a bit extreme to me, but then again God have never been known for beeng subtle or making compromises... The whole debate is rather pointless though because if God exist he's not likely to change his critereas for entry into heaven simply based on popular demand... Jan Erik Mydland HoF admin |
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Möwe Registered user Last page view: 6615 days, 1 hour, 30 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
I am a Christian. Others may doubt this after reading this post. I do not believe in this whole heaven-hell-good-evil-thing. The world is not black and white. I believe we are called to take part in the creation of God's kingdom on earth by following what Jesus taught us. Through Jesus God made us free, free to live close to him. You know that sin means separation? Maybe I should try to write something to the topic of this thread. God is much greater than we sometimes seem to think. Who do we think we are to try to judge people's lifes with our interpretation of God's word? By the way I think God's word is not only the bible but also a sunset or a storm or a person's smile or an illness or something we read somewhere that just strikes us. It's a matter of listening. What happens after we die I don't know. But I am sure it will be allright and am not at all worried. That's a matter of trust. I wouldn't want to go to a neverchanging eternal everything-is-perfect heaven that closes its door on every second person anyway. I don't think there is a hell made by God, only all kinds of hells made by humans. Hell is being seperated from God. Does any of this make sense? |
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Ryan Klein Registered user Because I said so is why! Last page view: 1661 days, 9 hours, 15 minutes and 26 seconds ago. |
It's Nothing but shades of gray chief. There is No true white (christ sinned too) or true black (lucifer was an angel) Now we're talking Jedi? I can't touch that stuff. I'm not too boned up on Star Wars (the light sabers bugged my eye.) |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7317 days, 13 hours, 31 minutes and 38 seconds ago. |
It seems that Christians follow their belief but have different veiws on hell and heaven. I've spoken to some who even believe in resurrection and hell and heaven are just their final resting place. Also their are different levels of heaven and hell some say. Jan: This debate's point is to share veiws, it has nothing to do with trying to change God's criterea Caladriel: Some Christians would disagree with you, some say you can't even comminicate with God unless your Christian by status. Jedi was initially a prank but got far more votes than previously thought. They are official in the sense of vast followers, but it depends what you define as official I guess. Möwe: I agree with your views on God's word. I beleive God is uncomprehendable and therefore there are many unique ways to comminicate with him not just through the bible. LS |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 13 hours, 48 minutes and 3 seconds ago. |
Re: Belief in Christ Jan: My interpretation of Christ's teachings differs from what you view as the Christian belief. There are millions of people who died before Christ was born, and millions more, after Christ's death who never had the opportunity to know about Christ. I cannot imagine that God would withhold salvation from them simply because of geography. BMB, you can be saved because of Christ. An Inuit born in 100 A.D. may never have heard of Jesus, but s/he can still repent and acknowledge the need (and desire) for forgiveness. Belief in Christ simply makes it easier to get past the fear, pride or whatever that is keeping one from asking for forgiveness. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 13 hours, 48 minutes and 3 seconds ago. |
Re: Heaven and Hell I do not know about Heaven and Hell. I try to use salvation, which is rather generic. I do believe quite strongly in life after death , but my thoughts of what salvation (or lack thereof) really entails are not that firm. On the whole, I think that salvation means that you are with God. Perhaps not being saved simply means that you are truly separated from God -- to become and know on the deepest level that you are completely alone. I have no opinion whatsoever on the idea of red hot pokers and/or harps. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 13 hours, 48 minutes and 3 seconds ago. |
Ryan: Where, exactly, have you read that Christ sinned? |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 13 hours, 48 minutes and 3 seconds ago. |
C: I do not believe in subjective morality. That is, I think people will claim that something is right, and may even believe it on the surface, when, in actuality, that action is morally wrong. To take some extreme examples -- The Nazis thought they were morally right in the systematic destruction of the Jews. The Serbs thought they were morally right in the institutionalized rape of Muslims. The Taliban though they were morally right in the organized oppression of women. |
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Guinea Registered user tWo-HeAdEd cHaOs WeAsEl Last page view: 6975 days, 13 hours, 4 minutes and 41 seconds ago. |
Jedi repress all emotions... well, that's nice, I'd like to achieve this. Just calm whatever happens. But it's quite hard, you know. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 13 hours, 48 minutes and 3 seconds ago. |
Luke: I think you will find as many interpretations of Christ's teachings as there are people who call themselves Christian. Some Christians have the belief that you can make up for doing 'bad' acts by doing 'good' acts. Others believe that you can not make up for doing 'bad' acts; you can only sincerely seek forgiveness and try to live better. Personally, I think the first belief is incorrect -- or, at least, more incorrect than the second belief -- I can't help it. Almost by definition, my beliefs are those I consider most correct. |
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Ryan Klein Registered user Because I said so is why! Last page view: 1661 days, 9 hours, 15 minutes and 26 seconds ago. |
It was in Mathew somewhere. Remember that John the Baptist had baptized him. Why? Because he was a carpenter instead of God's servant for so long. Booyah. I know a little religion at least. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3762 days, 4 hours, 10 minutes and 33 seconds ago. |
I suppose I'm different from most people when I say that religion, just like any other area of life, has definite answers. I'm a scientist--well, I will be if I ever pass Calc III--and that's just the way I think. There's only one set of answers to an equation, and there's only one set of answers to what happens after we're dead. Our job is to find out which set of answers is true. (This doesn't, by the way, exclude from the possible explanations the theories that "There are many ways to get to heaven" or "Heaven is what you make it"; but it does say that if one of them is true then it must necessarily exclude all others). I've told you all that I'm a Christian before; and the reason I'm a Christian is that I've looked at the different worldviews out there, and I think the answers presented in the Bible offer the best explanations for where we came from, what we're supposed to be doing now, and where we're going when we're done doing it. I make no apologies for the fact that I believe that Christianity is the only answer. In fact, in order to believe that any more than one religion actually held answers to those important questions forces one to make many illogical statements. Ryan: Being a carpenter doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't God's servant when He was growing up. There's a verse somewhere--I forget where, now--that says that Jesus can relate to us because he's been tempted in all the same ways, had the same experiences in life, as we did. There's no way Jesus could've had that if he didn't have experience with living a normal life. That Christ was baptized also does not mean that He sinned. If you were to go back to the Jewish culture, being baptized (if you don't count the washing that Jews did after they had been unclean, such as by touching a dead body) meant a dedication or change of some sort--for example, when taking the vow of a Nazarite. Jesus was basically being dedicated to God for his ministry. That's why you see the Holy Spirit and God the father at the scene of his baptism, giving approval of His ministry. Was that more than 20 lines? Sorry... I'll post more than twenty lines on the role-playing boards to make up for it. :) Don't hit me with a muddy snowball, please... Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Vennom Registered user Champion of the Undead Last page view: 7722 days, 7 hours, 32 minutes and 56 seconds ago. |
I think that actions speak louder than words; if you say you are saved, and then do nothing else about anything, then you are only paying lip service. Professions of faith as WELL as whole-hearted, decent acts (and these can, and by need, must differ greatly from person to person) speak more about that person's actual commitment. Also, I certainly think that baptism is a must before going to heaven. Beyond that, criteria for getting to heaven I think differ greatly for different people. "The dead aren't so bad, once you get to know them." [Edited 2 times, last edit on 3/6/2003 at 22:30 (GMT -5) by Vennom] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3762 days, 4 hours, 10 minutes and 33 seconds ago. |
Yes, the whole book of James pretty much says just that: If people can't see any difference in your life--if you don't do any "good works"--then you probably aren't saved. Good works are the evidence of faith, and faith is what saves you; so pretty much they go hand in hand, though no amount of good works can get you to heaven. Questions: Why would baptism be a must? Jesus let the thief on the cross into heaven, and that guy wasn't baptized. Why would the criteria for getting into heaven differ for different people (presuming that they've all heard the gospel at least once)? We're all under the same curse, after all; it makes sense that we'd all could all use the same solution. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 1 time, last edit on 3/6/2003 at 22:38 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7317 days, 13 hours, 31 minutes and 38 seconds ago. |
What curse would that be Iridia? IMHO, I see the criteria for getting heaven as more an art form than a equation like in maths, in that there are many different ways to get there. A person may repent in infinate different ways and who are we to say which is right? We are all different and even our common beliefs differ slightly, it's what makes us so unique, and to show uniqueness in our relationship with God reflects on our own personnel weilding of his gift of freedom. LS |
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Möwe Registered user Last page view: 6615 days, 1 hour, 30 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
Re: Iridia I think Baptism is in the same way important as marriage is. It's a definite yes to a relationship, to a way of life. I don't think it's a criterion for getting into heaven because I doubt the existense of criteria and of heaven/hell. I mean, God is great, he created this great universe, he is the very inside of everything. His whole plan for humanity can't just be: put them on earth, see how they get along cursed with curiosity and not being able to be perfect and than reward them or not. This sounds just stupid. Note that I don't say everybody should do whatever he wants. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 13 hours, 48 minutes and 3 seconds ago. |
Vennom: I think it is dangerous for us to judge whether somebody is sincere or not in their repentance. I agree that if you claim to repent and want forgiveness, but continue to act as before, then you probably have not sincerely repented. If you truly consider an action to be "wrong" then I would think you would at least try not to do it any more. Still, except in extreme cases, I think we should leave judging to God. I figure that It knows considerably more than me about another person's situation, motivation and thoughts. I think we can only judge ourselves. For the biblically minded, I would point to 1st Corinthians . . . 13? . . . which I read to mean that just because you do everything right on the outside does not mean you have opened on the inside. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 3/7/2003 at 10:41 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Möwe Registered user Last page view: 6615 days, 1 hour, 30 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
Re: Iridia First I wanted to disagree with your statement that there is only one set of answers, but then I thought about it and found that I agree. I'm also a scientist. And as a scientist I know that the right answers allways surprise with their simplicity and beauty. If something is very difficult, contains all kinds of parameters and works only under the right circumstances it's probably not the final solution and may even be on a totally wrong way. But I think the answer lies beyond religion. Religion is kind of a way of solving the equation. Some may never work as not all methods work. Even within one religion there are as many different approaches as there are people. This picture shouldn't be stretched too far, because religion is not just a solving method. When you look at wise people of the different religions and what they said and how they lived you can find lots of things they had in common. Maybe when we find the common denominator we also have the answer. |
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Luke Registered user Apprentice Last page view: 7317 days, 13 hours, 31 minutes and 38 seconds ago. |
When I say there are many ways that doesn't mean there aren't many ways to be lead astray. Religion isn't a science however and can be seen in different ways and as humans we cannot really see beyond our minds to see what is really true. Therefore there is a lot of scope for individual perception, our path is decided by ourselves at the end of the day but that doesn't mean we walk alone on the bigger scale of paths, meaning we may walk different ways but that doesn't mean we all end up at different places. My personnel belief is resurrection, hell and heaven seem too simplistic for how complex life is. LS |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 13 hours, 48 minutes and 3 seconds ago. |
Iridia: "I believe that Christianity is the only answer" What do you mean by "Christianity." Do you mean a belief in Christ? Does your definition allow for all the people who died before Christ was born? What about all the people who never had a chance to even hear about Jesus or God? I doubt that a 3rd century Japanese peasant even knew the Roman Empire existed, let alone some new and obscure Religion. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 13 hours, 48 minutes and 3 seconds ago. |
Ryan: Why would being baptized and/or being a carpenter mean that a person was a sinner? People get baptized to wash away their old life, and start new and fresh. Jesus was starting a new life as a spiritual teacher. As for carpentry . . . I have never heard that shaping objects out of wood is a sin, and I have always been of the opinion that anybody can be a servant of God, regardless of their profession. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 3/12/2003 at 11:05 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3762 days, 4 hours, 10 minutes and 33 seconds ago. |
Caladriel: Common question. Very common... The people who died before Jesus was born could have been saved by believing in the coming of a Saviour. This wasn't just prophesied to the Jews; Adam and Eve (and thus the whole human race) were given the hope of a savior right after the fall. Read Hebrews 11... basically, Jesus's death paid for ALL sin--committed before and after he died. That's not such a stretch, considering God transcends time--created it, in fact. "Those who have never heard" are "without excuse" according to Scripture, because they can deduce the existence of a God from nature. People are responsible only for what they know; those who haven't even heard of Jesus will probably be judged on the basis of what they HAVE heard--in many people's cases, all they had was the testimony of Creation. Yes, I'm also a Creationist. Maybe you think that's a bit eccentric, because you weren't taught it in school as a viable alternative to the normal evolution model, but there are actually quite a few people--including scientists--who believe God had something to do with the origin of the universe. Why? Logic: An intelligent cause for this intricate universe makes much more sense than blaming pure chance. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 13 hours, 48 minutes and 3 seconds ago. |
Iridia: Actually, you never answered my very common question: What do you mean by "Christianity"? You said Christianity is the only way. I had hoped your definition of Christianity allows for those who never heard of Jesus. You have told me how your definition allows for such people but you haven't told me what your definition actually is. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 13 hours, 48 minutes and 3 seconds ago. |
Iridia: As for the very common answer you did give me . . . To paraphrase: If you have never heard of Jesus but believe in God, you are Christian and can be saved. However, if you have heard of Jesus, you must believe He is the Messiah in order to be saved. Is that accurate? What about those who have heard of Jesus, but had His teachings presented in an inaccurate way? I've heard teachings from some of the more bigoted, racist, anti-semitic sects of Christianity. I don't blame people for doubting Jesus was the Messiah, if that is their experience with Christianity. IMHO, such people can still sincerely repent doing "wrong" and both acknowledge the need for forgiveness and desire forgiveness. i.e. They can still reach salvation. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4703 days, 13 hours, 48 minutes and 3 seconds ago. |
Heh, I think we had an entire thread on evolution vs. Creationism and Original Sin |
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