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Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / ADOM / About the "chaos servant" end.

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Jan Erik
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Posted on Monday, January 09, 2006 at 16:14 (GMT -5)

I got a question on e-mail about why characters who get the "transformed into a miserable and wretched chaos servant" ending (like this) are considered "Avatars".

My logic for doing so is that while it's not a "happy" ending the character did save the world, so it's not a untimely death. Same with characters who die after closing the chaos game rely.

Any thoughts on this? Should they go in the "untimely deaths" category instead? Or maybe I should create a new catagory just for this "ending"? I think there are only 2-3 characters in the whole HoF that this apply to.
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Darren Grey
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Posted on Monday, January 09, 2006 at 21:51 (GMT -5)

Well, just to give my opinion as one who has been stupid enough to get the "miserable and wretched chaos servant" ending... I must say I can't think of a worse time to die than straight after killing Andor Drakon, so I would most certainly consider it to be a *very* untimely death. Also the highscore does very clearly state "Died on xxx" instead of "Won" or "Ascended". Classifying it as an Avatar seems inherently wrong to me, since the PC does not manage to attain this status.

Making a new group also seems silly for such a small number, though I do note that there are currently 3 deaths after closing the gate and 2 deaths after killing Andy on the v 1.1.1 high score list - that makes a total of 5 "Died after saving the world", which would be a bigger group than normal Chaos Gods. So I suppose that's an option, though to me it seems like they still fit fine into Untimely Deaths.

Overall it's not hugely important obviously - I'm just being a bit nit-picky... ;)

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Darren
Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse."
AnonPoster
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Posted on Monday, January 09, 2006 at 22:16 (GMT -5)

It depends on how we define "Avatar" and "Untimely Death".

If "Avatar" means "FLG Says You Were an Avatar", then chaos servant ending does not belong. If it means "Getting the TOTRR and Defeating Andy", then the chaos servant ending is perfectly fine. I prefer the latter, myself.
tongHoAnh
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adoomed


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Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 at 07:18 (GMT -5)

"Defeating Andy" should be enough for an avatar, no matter what the storyline say, since we cant do anything with it.
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Iridia
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YASD


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Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 at 10:54 (GMT -5)

I would give it a special category in Untimely Deaths, for any character that died on D:50 or the ChAoS plane. Those are the saddest and most interesting deaths, anyway.
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Molach
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Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 at 09:28 (GMT -5)

I would give it a special category, but under the "avatar" header.
(Avatar of order, balance, ultimate chaos, regular chaos, chaos servant)

It would be logical as well, since we consider a "dying after closing gate" game a regular winner. "Dying after killing Andy" should still be considered a variant of avatar.
Another reason for this is that a few of the "regular losers" get more points than the chaos servant guys do, so they would be lost in te crowd, and not stand out like they deserve.

On a side track, which game would you guys consider the hardest?
Avatar of Order is probably the easiest of avatars (no corruption needed)
How about the rest - Balance, or ultimate chaos or regualar chaos?
There are 4 regular chaos, 7 ultimate chaos and a lot of balance avatars in the HoF, mabye we should surmise that regual is the hardest...:)

[Edited 1 time, last edit on 1/17/2006 at 09:38 (GMT -5) by Molach]
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Morio
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Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 at 09:58 (GMT -5)

the reason why there are so few regular chaos god endings in the hof might be that people doesn't do them anymore. It was the first special ending to be added, and many people have already done it (me too:), but a long time ago.

might be slightly spoily, so:


Spoiler
The regular chaos ending is not the hardest one (atleast not imo), since you don't need the TotRR, and you can stay chaotic all game, no need to switch alignment. Allthough you won't have the TotRR to beat Andy with, and you'll have to wield the sceptre of chaos in the right hand whn he dies, which makes it a bit harder. IMO the ultimate chaos god ending is the hardest one, since it often involves quite a few alignment changes (allthough not always)

"I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but I know World War 4 with be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein

[Edited 1 time, last edit on 1/17/2006 at 10:00 (GMT -5) by Morio]
Molach
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Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 at 10:46 (GMT -5)

I tend to agree.
However, not saving K. and not getting the T. makes for a more challenging game.
(Lose out on rewards is a drawback)
Going down to the special level is easy enough.
But then again, if you happen to save him then the above does not apply.

For the ultimate you have to pass on crowning benefits for some time, which makes it harder than Balanced, at least.
Darren Grey
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Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 at 15:12 (GMT -5)

Of the 4 normal Chaos Gods on the hall of fame one of them was a challenge game which involved killing only a single monster (Andy being the one) and the Ultra endings couldn't be tried due to the restrictions involved with this. I imagine this was one of the hardest games ever completed. Other regular Chaos God endings wouldn't be overly hard though, since there's no need for alignment changes, you can get crowned as early as you like, and if you want to save K and get the T you're welcome to.

UCE is probably the hardest. The changing alignment isn't too much trouble (harder for ULE trying to get back up to L+ and staying there) but the corruption's a real bugger.
Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse."
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Torte
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Hooray


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Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 at 15:19 (GMT -5)

I'm just curious, how can one get an ultra ending and only kill one monster? I mean, don't you need to kill the Multi Headed Dragon and Filk and the Emepror Moloch, at the very least?

EDIT: Not to mention all the Orb Guardians...?

[Edited 1 time, last edit on 1/18/2006 at 15:19 (GMT -5) by Torte]
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*Chaos Muffin*
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Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 at 15:27 (GMT -5)



Spoiler
highly trained pet killer bugs

*<< Words go here >>*

[Edited 1 time, last edit on 1/18/2006 at 15:28 (GMT -5) by *Chaos Muffin*]
tongHoAnh
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adoomed


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Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 at 00:36 (GMT -5)

and that is an extreme archivement, which I bet that I cant match in a lifetime or two.
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Morio
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Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 at 12:29 (GMT -5)

Torte, Trinity (IIRC that was the name of the char) didn't do an ultimate chaos god ending, only a regular chaos god ending, which doesn't require you to kill Filk, the emperor moloch etc. An ultimate chaos god ending would be impossible to do at lvl 1 since you need to be lvl 45 to get the quest to kill Filk
"I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but I know World War 4 with be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
Darren Grey
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Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 at 14:40 (GMT -5)

I assume that even if you were able to get to level 45 without killing anything you would still need to have one kill to be able to complete the Filk quest. In fact, I'm extremely curious now as to what would happen if you get the quest without having any kills...

tongHoAnh, the most extreme thing about the achievement was the player's amazing patience in building up a level 1 character's stats and abilities to survive. A full description of the game can be found at http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.games.roguelike.adom/msg/256516654c561aaa
Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse."
tongHoAnh
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adoomed


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Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 at 18:30 (GMT -5)

IMO, when you have known most the tricks, the only thing that kill yu is your own stupidity. It was proved in 95% of my highscore deathlist :)
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[Edited 1 time, last edit on 1/19/2006 at 18:36 (GMT -5) by tongHoAnh]
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Jan Erik
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Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 at 10:12 (GMT -5)

My system currently doesn't allow for "sub categories", nor can I choose where on the page it appears (dead last since the most recent addition). I can tweak the database to fix these limitations at some point though...

For now I have added a "Fallen heroes" category (feel free to suggest a better name though), and move the relevant characters into it.
Jan Erik Mydland
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Morio
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1939 days, 2 hours, 6 minutes and 51 seconds ago.
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 at 11:40 (GMT -5)

Darren, getting to lvl 45 without any kills would be soooo... tedious :D
"I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but I know World War 4 with be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
Darren Grey
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Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 at 12:37 (GMT -5)

Jan, I love the title of Fallen Heroes, very appropriate :)

Morio, a tad tedious, yes, but it's necessary to discover this item of vital importance! How can you sleep at night whilst the mystery still lives?!
Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse."
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Morio
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Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 at 13:20 (GMT -5)

Maybe someone could use adomsage, oslt to try this out
"I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but I know World War 4 with be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
Sami Mäki
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Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 at 18:52 (GMT -5)

Aren't these two games counted as fallen heroes (both have closed the gate and then descended to the infinite dungeon where their story were ended): http://adom.brinkster.net/hof/flg_disp.asp?display=archer2.txt (#1 in untimely deaths)
http://adom.brinkster.net/hof/flg_disp.asp?display=avok.txt (#2 in untimely deaths)

Both of these doesn't have any orbs (used them in D:48) and they have killed the greater balor which is an unique monster in D:50.
Darren Grey
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2280 days, 3 hours, 50 minutes and 51 seconds ago.
Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 at 12:16 (GMT -5)

Neither of them have the text "(after saving the world)" in the flg or in the high score listing. Weird... The Archer one specifically says the gate was closed, the other has no comments. It's possible that they left one of the balors alive and so the gate was reopened, but I must admit that seems unlikely. Perhaps the game (or the flg at least) doesn't properly recognise the world-saving bit if you die in the infinite dungeon?
Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse."
Silfir
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Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 at 14:43 (GMT -5)

For the archer who died in 737 ID, he must've closed the gate, otherwise corruption would've got him. So I second the possibility of a bug regarding dying in the ID after winning.

Un a totally unrelated note, the chaos winner section has an Avatar of Order in first place. Some mistake must've happened there.
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Morio
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1939 days, 2 hours, 6 minutes and 51 seconds ago.
Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 at 15:02 (GMT -5)

Besides, both of those characters have created all five elemental orbs, and neither of them have them left in their inventory, so unless they have dumped the orbs somewhere I'm pretty sure they have closed the gate
"I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but I know World War 4 with be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
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Jan Erik
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Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 at 18:35 (GMT -5)

I guess the greater balor on the kill list is a clue to... I've moved those two to the fallen heroes section. I only added the ones with the "after winning" or "after saving his/her world" bit in the summary field, so I might have missed more of these if people built the score details by coying bits from the flg file rather than from the hiscore itself.

Fixed the misplaced avatar too.
Jan Erik Mydland
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Darren Grey
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2280 days, 3 hours, 50 minutes and 51 seconds ago.
Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 at 21:10 (GMT -5)

Even the text in the flg should say "after saving the world", so I assume it must be a weird bug to do with dying in the infinite dungeon. Not really worth posting a bug report over though, the game scores at least seem to properly reflect a world saving game (I think the game score gets doubled or something like that). I note that in the Untimely Deaths section there's another character (Renfruth) who's listed as being killed by Fisty after winning, but I assume since 1 lever remained intact you haven't included them?
Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse."
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Jan Erik
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Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 at 11:40 (GMT -5)

Yeah that one was deliberate. I figured a requirement for saving the world would be to at least make it off level 50 alive with the gate still closed (though I guess he could have destroyed the levers, I didn't check that).
Jan Erik Mydland
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