Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / Atheism and Church vs. State
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7307 days, 3 hours, 10 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
unless maybe someone here is really george bush. anyone? admit to it now! ... (: |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 54 minutes and 59 seconds ago. |
LOL... if George Bush played ADOM, he'd have a bit better military strategy, wouldn't he now? Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Jonesy Registered user Liberate Te Ex Inferis Last page view: 6716 days, 18 hours, 53 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
Caladriel: I spew tons of random quotes, so those are the ones I chose to put up there. "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."- Voltaire "Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven."- John Milton, Paradise Lost "Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth, follow only beauty, and obey only love."- Kahlil Gibran "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it."- Voltaire. "What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist."-Salman Rushdie |
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DaN Registered user Cursed and Doomed Last page view: 7201 days, 22 hours, 40 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
"LOL... if George Bush played ADOM, he'd have a bit better military strategy, wouldn't he now?" nah, he'd still be leading his characters down the ID wondering why he could never find the bottom |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7307 days, 3 hours, 10 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
lol "now i know there are weapons of mass destruction somewhere down here..." (: |
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Jonesy Registered user Liberate Te Ex Inferis Last page view: 6716 days, 18 hours, 53 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
lol. I got a very funny clip of the state of the union adress, edited so he keeps saying funny stuff like "Every american child should have..... 3 nuclear missles". :-). "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."- Voltaire "Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven."- John Milton, Paradise Lost "Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth, follow only beauty, and obey only love."- Kahlil Gibran "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it."- Voltaire. "What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist."-Salman Rushdie |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7307 days, 3 hours, 10 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
is it online somewhere? (: |
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Jonesy Registered user Liberate Te Ex Inferis Last page view: 6716 days, 18 hours, 53 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
Yeah, warfalcons.com Be warned, that site has a lot of crap on it. It's near the middle. "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."- Voltaire "Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven."- John Milton, Paradise Lost "Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth, follow only beauty, and obey only love."- Kahlil Gibran "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it."- Voltaire. "What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist."-Salman Rushdie |
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DaN Registered user Cursed and Doomed Last page view: 7201 days, 22 hours, 40 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
back to religion slightly... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tees/3088444.stm d'oh! that is what damn RE lessons are for |
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Jonesy Registered user Liberate Te Ex Inferis Last page view: 6716 days, 18 hours, 53 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
LOL. Quite a funny article. "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."- Voltaire "Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven."- John Milton, Paradise Lost "Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth, follow only beauty, and obey only love."- Kahlil Gibran "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it."- Voltaire. "What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist."-Salman Rushdie |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 32 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
Iridia: Did you see the contradiction I ran into from your posts? (See my response to clear up praying to the Biblical "God") |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7379 days, 17 hours, 19 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Caladriel: Did my posts RE Capital Punishment clear up my viewpoint? Or do you still feel my attitude tends towards the fundamentalist? |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 54 minutes and 59 seconds ago. |
Cal: Yes. I would maintain that the Biblical God is not the God the Muslims worship, though they claim the two are the same. The Jews are a special case; they do worship the same God but need to believe in Jesus as the Messiah (except for the special case in which they may not have heard about him... I doubt more than a few dozen people fall into this category) in order to enter heaven. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7379 days, 17 hours, 19 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Why's everyone want to get into heaven anyway? If such a thing did exist it'd only be filled with nerds anyway. :) |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 32 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
Iridia: Understood -- Jews worship God, but, on the whole, do not believe Christ is the Messiah. So, contrary to your previous agreement, it is not sufficient to ask God, regulary and with true and heartfelt repentence, for forgiveness, to try to have no Idols other than It, and to try to love one's neighbor as oneself. Such a person would still be condemned. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/17/2003 at 13:16 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 32 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
Lamaros: Yes it clears up your view of capital punishment, and yes, I still feel your attitude tends towards the fundamentalist. :-) I don't feel this because of your stance on capital punishment, but, rather, because of your stance on proselytizers. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 54 minutes and 59 seconds ago. |
Hmmm. So Lamaros, am I a nerd? j/k Caladriel: You have to ask the right god. My pastor once said, "You can have all the faith you want in a potted plant, and it still won't answer your prayers"... I do not believe that Muslims worship the same god I worship; the Koran and the Bible don't match very well. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/16/2003 at 17:37 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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DaN Registered user Cursed and Doomed Last page view: 7201 days, 22 hours, 40 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
surely heaven is whatever your idea of eternal happiness and bliss is, your happy place for eternity then lamaros'heaven would be devoid of nerds |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 54 minutes and 59 seconds ago. |
Shall I apply Caladriel's rather stringent ideas to you, DaN? :) Instead of saying "surely", you should say that it's YOUR OPINION that heaven is "whatever your idea of eternal happiness and bliss is". Because, you know... you could be wrong; it mightn't be :) Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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DaN Registered user Cursed and Doomed Last page view: 7201 days, 22 hours, 40 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
:P and just to reiterate :p well if heaven was lots of white and fluffy clouds and golden sunshine beaming down on you and nerds In My Opinion (:p ) wouldn't that be a bit of crap reward for being sin-less all your life? |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7307 days, 3 hours, 10 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
heh. like my new title. I think this should clear things up... (: |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7379 days, 17 hours, 19 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
I don't mind being a bit fundamentalist. I know that I am in certain ways and accept that I want to be in those ways. I don't think I'm getting much out of this discussion anymore, everyone's just nit-picking or repeating themselves... lets spice it up a bit. I think most people are hypocrytes. I feel that the 'Christian' stance of certain people is laughable. People like politicians, certain religious leaders, fundamentalists, etc.. I have always thought that the appeal of religion was the community that went with it. I could have the exact same moral viewpoint as you, but while we hold that we are individuals we are different. I felt that people follow religions because with it they get a sense of belonging, people to share feelings and worries between. I think religion stems from fear of the unknown, and in joining a group then that fear is lessened not only by the teachings of the religion, but also by the sharing and support of its community. With such communities openly hypocritical and in disarray; with the political nature of the major religious bodies and the fundametalist attitudes held my many of the more steadfast members, what is the attraction these days? Why do people need to say "I'm a Christian" and the like rather than just say "I believe this." Cal: Yes, I'm not interested in being converted. This is because I see no point and I see an amazing number of of negative conitations that I really don't want to have anything to do with, they cloud the issue. That's not to say I'm not interested in those coulds completely, but in the context of this discussion I feel they have no place. Fundamentalist, ok. I once had a long conversation with an american missionary while I was waiting for the bus. In the end he gave me his copy of his bible so that I could read it and I did. If you reject my notion on the pointlessness of Christianity out of hand (and I feel you do) then you're being just as fundamentalist towards retaining your viewpoint as I am towards other's. That doesn't mean I might not convert at some point (though I doubt it) but it does mean I'm not interested in being converted. If I change my mind it'll be because of the views and thought I have come into contact with have meaning towards me, not because someone says "You have to or you'll go to hell". Likewise, I'm not trying to convert you, but if I can express myself in a way that you understand then perhaps that might change your worldview too. But I don't want you to beleive what I believe, otherwise it wouldn't be much fun talking to you. I'm just interested in saying and listening to things and thinking about them myself. If someone enteres in a conversation with me with the specific intent of changing my mind, and not concerned with expressing themselves i'm not interested. So a fundamentalist is me? I dunno. And if I am, I can always change. It's a constant process. :-) (yeah, it's long) |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7307 days, 3 hours, 10 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
i have never been a big fan of the people who try to get other people to convert by standing on a street corner, handing out Bibles. it seems to me (like lamaros said) that if someone was considering converting, they would already have one. not that im against christianity, or any other belief, i just think that if someone standing on a street corner, handing out bibles, can change someone elses opinion about the creation of the world, they must not of had a very good view of it anyway, and would probably not stay with any one belief for very long. I have to say, (please do not quote me on this, if you plan on using it against me in the future...) i am not very sucure with my beliefs. i could sway one way, or the other, with a good wind. What i can say is this: there is no other non-'godism' belief out there, that can fully hold together, from what ive heard. And christianity holds together (regardless of the "holes" that it is said to have.) the most, out of all beliefs, considering you can have some form of faith. This is of course, what my title says. (: |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 32 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
Iridia: . . . I have suspicions that you are avoiding the question. :-) When I realized you had problems considering Muslims and Hindus, I simplified the situation by only referring to Jews, yet you brought them up again in your past couple posts on this issue. You agreed that Jews worship the same God as you. So we have Jews who regularly, with true and heartfelt repentence, ask God for forgiveness, try to have no Idols other than It, and try to Love their neighbors as themselves. If Christianity is the [only] way to know God, then they can't know God, but if people who regularly, with true and heartfelt repentence, ask God for forgiveness, try to have no Idols other than It, and try to Love their neighbors as themselves do know God, then these Jews do know God. Which is it? |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 32 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
:-D Ah, but DaN prefaced his post with "surely". I believe that implies "I believe." It almost makes the statement a question or hypothesis. Contrast: "Surely, you don't want her at the wedding." to "Obviously, you don't want her at the wedding." |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 32 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
Lamaros: Another problem with big posts is that there is too much to which to respond. :-) Re: Fundamentalism So you accept that you are a bit fundamentalist in your beliefs, but you are upset by other people being a bit fundamentalist in their beliefs . . . That just seems a tad . . . well . . . I'll let you come up with the word. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 32 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
Re: The Pointlessness of Christianity If there is no God or Spiritual existance outside of the physical world, then I agree with you that Christianity is pointless as a belief to have yourself. The only alternative that I have found, though (to the existance of God) is that we make all of our morals ourselves. Yes, society gives us influences, but in the end, we choose which to accept. In that case, I can either reject the Golden Rule, or cease being angry (in a sense, judging) any other person. Additionally, I cannot explain consciousness. BTW, my actual belief in God stems from my life's experience, but, since you have not lived my life, I try not to use that in discussions. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4908 days, 32 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
Re: The point of Christianity Personally, I am not Christian for the community. I have and explore my beliefs as a way of connecting to God, getting to know myself, getting to understand others and getting fulfillment from life. Interestingly, Community is both a cause and effect of these reasons (but not a goal). Christianity leads me to sharing with others and being a part of a Community; while sharing with others and being part of a Community helps me be a better Christian. (at least, better at what I consider a Christian to be) However, Community and sharing is not the reason why I try to be a Christian. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3966 days, 14 hours, 54 minutes and 59 seconds ago. |
*sigh* Is this "try to trap Iridia day" or something, and no one told me? According to the Bible, knowing God and knowing Jesus are the same thing; you can't know God without knowing Jesus. Some references: John 14:6-7 "I [Jesus] am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well." John 10:10 "I [Jesus] and the Father are one." Note that "the Father" refers to God. A Jew who believes in Jesus remains a Jew, but also becomes a Christian... do a Google search on "Messianic Jew" to find out more about that. The Jewish religion is "special" because the Jews were the people God chose to send the Messiah (Jesus) to. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/17/2003 at 18:53 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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DaN Registered user Cursed and Doomed Last page view: 7201 days, 22 hours, 40 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
as far as carefully wording my posts is concerned, it ain't gunna happen. if we communicated in pictures that would be fine. anyway, bring back the momentary tongue-in-cheek, i liked that also, there was this article in the Guardian today comparing religion to class A drugs ("more e vicar?"). "Religion - Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism etc, etc - is by definition irrational and, more than that, it is an irrationality that lays claim to the complete truth. How dangerous is that?" full story [Edited 2 times, last edit on 9/17/2003 at 19:18 (GMT -5) by DaN] |
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