Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / Atheism and Church vs. State
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 16 hours, 6 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
ADOM and Relationships was getting too long. Besides, by the second post, we somehow got into religion, so I am breaking out the active thread. Please try to keep posts to 20 lines or less. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 16 hours, 6 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Summary of Creationism and Atheism thread (Let me know if I have not included your ideas): Iridia and Lavos think that not teaching Creationism in Schools is tantamount to teaching atheism; this is, in a sense, teaching a religion: The religion of Atheism. They also think that not teaching Creationism in schools is unfair to religous children. Lamaros claims that Atheism is not a religion. Additionally, Caladriel is siding with Lamaros in that we cannot equally teach the beliefs of all religions, and therefore, teaching none is better -- and that teaching none is not teaching atheism. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 16 hours, 6 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Summary of the Alabama issue: Caladriel wants to know how people feel about the monument of the 10 commandments that resides in one of the courthouses in Alabama. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 16 hours, 6 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Re Alabama: It is not a historical document. 2 years ago, some judge had a 5,000 pound monument of the 10 commandments erected in the middle of the courthouse lobby. The higher courts have ruled that this is a breach of the separation of church and state. They claim that by having a monument of the core beliefs of a religion in an official government building is tantamount to advocating that religion. The judge who had the momument installed has refused to have it to be removed. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 16 hours, 6 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Iridia: How do you define Atheism? I have always defined it as believing that there is neither Gods nor God nor a spiritual existence separate from the physical world. Does your definition differ from mine? If not, then how does not teaching a religion's beliefs advocate that there is neither gods nor God nor a spiritual existance separate from the physical world? |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 16 hours, 6 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Lamaros: Do you think it is unfair to call Aetheism a religion? I agree with you that Atheism is a belief, but aren't all religions a set of one or more beliefs? Spiritual beliefs, perhaps, but Atheism, IMHO, is a spiritual belief -- specifically, the belief that there is no spirit. It is kind of the spiritual equivalent of the paradox of refrusing to act. In doing so, your are making an action: the act of refusal. Similarly, if you espouse that there is no God, you are espousing a belief about God: The belief that there is no God. I know that some people claim that a religion needs set practices, hierarchies, and established clergy, etc., but I think that that is confusing organized religion with religion |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3757 days, 6 hours, 28 minutes and 57 seconds ago. |
Yes. Your definition of atheism is pretty much accurate. When you go to school, you expect to learn everything important you'd have to know in life. Not teaching about religion implies it's not important or not true... which is definitely an attitude that advocates atheism. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 16 hours, 6 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Well, I think most schools do teach about religion (the history of how various religions arose, etc.) I'm debating teaching the actual beliefs of a religion. I'm not sure if your statement holds. Do you believe anything not taught in school will be considered unimportant by the students? (or, at least, that students will be pressured to believe it is unimportant?) [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/28/2003 at 18:32 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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C<U> Unregistered user |
What's so big about the 10 commandments monument? I've been watching the news and I think anything relating with the creation of law (gee where did it orginate?) should be left alone, now a big statue of Jesus is a diffrent story. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/28/2003 at 19:59 (GMT -5) by its author] |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7170 days, 8 hours, 53 minutes and 42 seconds ago. |
Do you think it is unfair to call Aetheism a religion? Of course. A religion is a system of beliefs, it is never (in my knowledge) confined to a single belief. Athiesm is a single perspective. If atheisim a religion would make all of the following religions: Belief in a God or Gods (irrespective of their other beliefs). Perhaps we'll call this 'Godism'. Belief that my parents are Aliens who created the universe would be a religion. Belief that my parents are not Aliens who created the universe would be a religion. Agnostics would belong to their own religion. Belief that dishes should be hand dried would be a religion. Belief that dishes should not be hand dried would be a religion. |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7170 days, 8 hours, 53 minutes and 42 seconds ago. |
Eg: I walk into a room and which has four seats. One is a beanbag, one is a chair, one is a couch. There is also a free space on the floor where there is a little cushion. There's also room at the back of the room to stand. There is a person in the room, he says hello and begins to instruct me in something. The next day I do the same thing, but this time before he starts he tells me that the beanbag is very soft and comfortable. The third day I come in and this time before he tells me a little about all the seats. The beanbag is soft and comfortable, the chair is sturdy and strong, the couch is relaxing and friendly, and the seat on the floor is humble and thoughtful. Or, he says, if I don't like any of the seats I can just stand, or leave. Which day do you think provides the fairest choice to the person, not swayed by the bias of the instructor? Put them in order. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/28/2003 at 20:18 (GMT -5) by Lamaros] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3757 days, 6 hours, 28 minutes and 57 seconds ago. |
'Kay. So maybe calling atheism a religion is stretching the definition of "religion" a bit. Let's call it a "worldview" and leave it at that... IMO? 3 and 1 are equally nonbiased, but 3 gives the listener the information he needs to make a good choice. 2 is biased, but if you had one advocate for each chair, it wouldn't be (in fact, it would be less biased than either 3 or 1, since the instructor, being human, would invariably have a seat preference of his own). A choice of religions is quite a bit more significant than a choice of chairs: While all the seats in that room might be equally profitable, and equally good choices, religions (or the choice not to be religious) profoundly affect the way you live and what happens after you die. Many (probably most) world-views claim that their ideas are the objective truth about the universe; many of them put forth bad consequences that come from either disbelieving, or believing in something else. So if I wanted to modify your chair example, I'd have to say that the proponents of each seat all say that the others are either dangerous, unstable, or not as comfortable as the one they prefer; I'd also have to say that your choice would affect your life outside the room. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7170 days, 8 hours, 53 minutes and 42 seconds ago. |
Examples are meant to be simplified though. I would put it at 1,3,2. As soon as someone, anyone, opens their mouth there is bias. If you have 30 different people expressing different views it won't chance the fact that those people will not all be as acomplished and convincing as each other. If you have only yourself, and you search out and think about the options avaliable to you for yourself you will only be dealing with your own bias (well, and your cultural and physical situation, but lets ignore that for now). And I wouldn't call it a 'worldview'; it's a view on the existance of God or Gods, that and that alone. |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7097 days, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 4 seconds ago. |
To put them all on the same level, lets just call them all beliefs, because thats what they are, and it is not bias towards any other one. Now with that said, Christianity, Bhuddism, Atheism, Muslim, and all other beliefs are on the same level, and can be treated that way. I agree with Iridia, about the chairs. Choosing a chair is hardly equal to choosing a belief, even if examples are supposed to be 'simplififed'. I could sit in the chair someone asked me to, because IMO they all sound equally comfortable, and lucrative. But, if someone simply asked me to change my belief about the creation of this world, i would have to decline, because i have a belief in the creation of the world, whereas i do not have any belief in chairs, and even if i did, it would be flexable. (: [Edited 1 time, last edit on 8/29/2003 at 16:17 (GMT -5) by Lavos] |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7097 days, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 4 seconds ago. |
Did me posting that make everyone stop.... no ones posted on this in a while. (: |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 16 hours, 6 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Lamaros: Re: Atheism I tried to qualify religion as "Spiritual" beliefs. Do you think that the drying of dishes falls under a spiritual decision? If I asked what your religion is, you could say: "I am an Atheist" or "I am an Agnostic" or "I am a Christian" or "I am an Orthodox Southern Baptist" and I would not think you were being evasive. You might even get away with "I think that Aliens created us and the Universe" (after all, wasn't there some mass suicide in California based on such a belief?) If you said "I believe dishes should be hand washed" I would infer that you did not want to discuss your religous/spiritual beliefs. As for Atheism being one belief, if you can tell me from where our morals come, will you not be giving a second belief? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/2/2003 at 17:39 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 16 hours, 6 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Lamaros: Re: Your Analogy I am afraid that I do not follow your analogy at all . . . Do you mean the fairest choice on which seat to take? Well, if so, first, I do not see the connection to religious/spiritual beliefs. Second, I think that he is being equally fair on all days. His comments do not really give you any additional information. Hmmm, actually, I suppose that you may not have known that you could leave if you wanted until the last day so, possibly, that is the fairest day. You would need to let me know if you were aware of that from day one. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 16 hours, 6 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
C: Which of our laws claim that the Lord is our God and we shall have none before It? This is the first commandment. |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7170 days, 8 hours, 53 minutes and 42 seconds ago. |
Re Athiesm: I fear we're going down the road to semantics. Which would split the thrust of this thread into another direction. So I'll leave it for now. Re The Analogy: It is in regard to teaching. To explain a point of it more clearly (hopfully) by another example. Someone is holding an apple, a pear, and a orange. You've never eaten any of them (or heard or seen any of them before). The person puts the three fruit down infront of you and tells you to eat one of them. They also tell you that the apple is delicious and crisp, and tastes great. There is a bias here towards the apple. More people would eat the apple than any other fruit. Same example but this time there are 50 different kinds of fruit. The person offers your your choice, also taking the time to tell you that the apple is rotten and wormy. There is a bias here towards the apple. I'm not really sure how many people would eat the apple, but more people would be aware of the apple than any other fruit. If you say nothing the is no bias (for the sake of example they're all equally visible, all equaly reachable.. etc). If you try to describe them all there is bias in every one, depending on the words said. Therefore saying nothing is the most fair option. That is the thrust of my example, makes sense? (I went over 20 lines, but sometimes it can't be helped.) This example is a better one, I think. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/2/2003 at 22:13 (GMT -5) by Lamaros] |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7170 days, 8 hours, 53 minutes and 42 seconds ago. |
More obviousness: Think of the fruits as religions, and the stuff the person tells you about them the process of teaching. Therefore I'm saying:
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7097 days, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 4 seconds ago. |
RE: fruit thing. What does that prove? Yes, he is being bias. No, it does not explain anything. (: |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3757 days, 6 hours, 28 minutes and 57 seconds ago. |
So you're saying that education is necessarily not comprehensive, and you're also saying that if it's not comprehensive, it's biased. Natural conclusion? All education is biased. And that's true: We're all human. Of course giving completely comprehensive education is impossible, but avoiding educating at all on those grounds is like saying, "Okay, I can't ensure that everyone in my public school system will know everything about math, so I won't even bother teaching the multiplication tables." The problem with this, of course, is that kids NEED math skills--at least basic math--to get around in the world. I would say that kids also need, at some point, to make a decision about their world-views: Is there a God? Why am I here? What do I choose as a basis for my actions and attitudes? Such decisions are important, and everyone, sooner or later, is going to have to make them. Educating children about various religions and viewpoints, while necessarily biased (you can't include every belief system, but you can teach about general categories and the largest religions), is better than no education about religion at all--because that decision, when the child makes it, had better be an informed one. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/3/2003 at 00:38 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7170 days, 8 hours, 53 minutes and 42 seconds ago. |
Maths and English are not belief systems. Neither is Science, Geography, Home Economics, or Materials Technology. Please remember the topic here. The topic is not education, it's religious education. Iridia: I never made comments about quantity and depth, only diversity. There is no diversity in maths. 1+1=2. If someone started saying 1+1=3, would anyone teach it? I would argue that while many won't learn maths without having lessons on it. Most people will still think about the world, their place in it, it's origin, and the like regardless of their education. I think relating it to maths (and most other educational staples) is a flawed example. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/3/2003 at 01:15 (GMT -5) by Lamaros] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3757 days, 6 hours, 28 minutes and 57 seconds ago. |
No example is perfect, but why is this a flawed example? Both math and religion are lessons which will be used later in a person's life. From what I know, many people--probably most--are sadly ignorant about the major religions, philosophies, and belief systems of the world. They make a choice by default, based on what their parents believe, on the environment they grow up in, or their exposure to someone who recruited them into a belief system. Even though we can't empirically know anything about religion, the subject is still extremely important. Pick any one of a thousand belief systems, and it will have in its ideology the statement that this system is better than all others--in fact, some belief systems offer serious repercussions for believing anything else. Since we can't completely prove one religion or another is right, we have to deal with the possibility of those penalties. Only one religion (or none of them) can be right. If you picked the wrong one--say, if, like I believe, the one that's true is Christianity--you could be in serious trouble. You might even end up in some version or other of hell. Because religion deals with the supernatural--you can't put God in a test tube--it will always be an individual choice. But because of its importance, the student should not have to make it without having been given as much information as possible. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 5 times, last edit on 9/3/2003 at 07:35 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 16 hours, 6 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Ugh, too many lines! I'm from the MTV generation. We don't have attention spans long enough for this. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3757 days, 6 hours, 28 minutes and 57 seconds ago. |
It's exactly twenty... Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4698 days, 16 hours, 6 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Really? Wow, that explains a lot. On my browser, it has about 30. My Internet explorer browser only fits about 68 characters per line in these forums. I guess different browsers have different settings. Maybe I can change my font. Heh, btw, I was actually responding to Lamaros. :-) |
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C Registered user Last page view: 6294 days, 21 hours, 49 minutes and 22 seconds ago. |
Screw that first one (eh... the way I feel about it) look at the others, just that one bleep line doesn't offend anyone...me that is. WHo cares? I mean its just one line... if too many people care, yeah sure remove it... All religions are correct, as long as it isn't just plain ridiculous in causing chaos (ex; I command you to slay 100+ people type stuff) and if you feel that's correct and honestly do, that's how your mind rewards you... OT; Now on the God the smiter thing, things are already set up to do that stuff, he doesn't kill you (imagine a computer program or something, does the programmer kill you?) (I know that was a bad ex. you guys will say oh well he made it to do that..) PS; after reading that one post I just had to sign in. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/3/2003 at 19:36 (GMT -5) by C] |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7097 days, 18 hours, 44 minutes and 4 seconds ago. |
Great example... for an ADOM forum. Though i only believe one, i agree that many religons do good. Most of them promote some sort of "goodness" (except for those ones as you said, that want you to kill 100+ people and such.) (: |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7170 days, 8 hours, 53 minutes and 42 seconds ago. |
I believe that it depends mostly on the person and the way they live their life, not the religion they follow. (Isn't some former christian minister getting executed in the US about now, for killing an abortion doctor? He is unrepentant and thinks he'll be rewarded in heaven.) I think you'll find that morality isn't something that can be taught in school all that well, it's something people pick up for themselves. The most important factor here would be the child's environment (neighbourhood, home, parents, peers). This would be especialy true for high school and beyond. It's been shown that the formative years of peoples lives (13 and below) have far, far, more influence on their character and personality than the time after that. Personal beliefs are not facts and figures like maths and engligh skills are, which is they would be so much harder to teach. And I don't think Christianity is correct and others incorrect, and I believe teaching small children such is nothing more than brainwashing. Seriously, why do you care what religion people follow? As long as they are good people, isn't that the point? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/3/2003 at 22:14 (GMT -5) by Lamaros] |
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