Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / Atheism and Church vs. State
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7171 days, 1 hour, 3 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
I believe that it depends mostly on the person and the way they live their life, not the religion they follow. (Isn't some former christian minister getting executed in the US about now, for killing an abortion doctor? He is unrepentant and thinks he'll be rewarded in heaven.) I think you'll find that morality isn't something that can be taught in school all that well, it's something people pick up for themselves. The most important factor here would be the child's environment (neighbourhood, home, parents, peers). This would be especialy true for high school and beyond. It's been shown that the formative years of peoples lives (13 and below) have far, far, more influence on their character and personality than the time after that. Personal beliefs are not facts and figures like maths and engligh skills are, which is they would be so much harder to teach. And I don't think Christianity is correct and others incorrect, and I believe teaching small children such is nothing more than brainwashing. Seriously, why do you care what religion people follow? As long as they are good people, isn't that the point? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/3/2003 at 22:14 (GMT -5) by Lamaros] |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7098 days, 10 hours, 53 minutes and 51 seconds ago. |
When did i say i cared what religion people followed? If i did i would be advertising about churchs in your area. "Isn't some former christian minister getting executed in the US about now, for killing an abortion doctor? He is unrepentant and thinks he'll be rewarded in heaven" There may be, but there are crazy people of all religions (and beliefs.) People who murder and steal, obviously have something wrong with them, and it has nothing to do with their religion. Small children should know about religion, and what it is, but they shouldnt be taught in detail IMO. They should wait until their older, 10+ or around there. I dont think kids learn morality in school, they learn it from there parents, or the people theyre around most (then they'll do the exact opposite in the coming years ;p.) It doesnt matter to me what religion people are. I can say i dislike the religions that have you kill anyone else to get into "heaven". And if your trying to say that that minister did it because he was "supposed to" because of his religion, i have to say your wrong there. The ten commandments say that you shouldn't murder, and nowhere does it say, unless someone else does first. My diagnosis for that minister: Crazy. (: |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7098 days, 10 hours, 53 minutes and 51 seconds ago. |
Yeah! i made it! 19 lines. (: |
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SolidSnake Unregistered user |
More wars have been started in the name of religion than any other reason. JSYK, The wacko pro-life guy was Paul Hill, and he was executed the other day. Serves the bastard right. |
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 Arancaytar Registered user Pyromancer Last page view: 570 days, 17 hours, 20 minutes and 39 seconds ago. |
Almost ironic, a pro-lifer committing murder... Crazy, I agree. The problem is not religion, but fundamentalism. All religions have their basis in ancient culture, and some stuff (like the sun circling the Earth) just doesn't comply with our society and knowledge of the world today. Once people start taking the old stuff literally and applying it to modern culture, you've got trouble. I remember some quote, I think it was about guns, but it also applies to religion: "Guns cause crimes like flies cause garbage." Religion does not directly cause violence, but religious motives will often be made responsible for violence. Move the cursor to the desired position and press [SPACE] when done. Impossible. Suddenly you stand elsewhere. You see an ancient altar of black obsidian. The goblin rockthrower suddenly shouts a prayer to his gods! You are consumed by a roaring column of flame! |
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DaN Registered user Cursed and Doomed Last page view: 6993 days, 6 hours, 24 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
yeah i saw a clip of that guy on tv sat in court, looked like a right smug bastard. i hope his execution goes horribly, horribly wrong although i'm no fan of religion it does have it's good point. some people need the rules and structure in their lives that religion gives them. you see all these born again christian and muslim criminals and they pretty much stay out of trouble, even if they do act a little holier-than-thou. what i don't like, and what i think causes so much trouble, is the beliefs, the differing views of what god, heaven/hell and all that crap is. they think they are right, everyone else is wrong and that those who don't beleive as they do are bad and need to die or be 'saved' |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3757 days, 22 hours, 38 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Look at it from their (well, I should say "our", since I'm a christian) perspective. If you believed that the whole world was in big trouble, and that there was only one way to get out of it... wouldn't you be trying to spread the world? If the absolute truth is a religion like Christianity, which says that there's only one way to get rid of the curse the whole world is under... then the rest of the world is in big trouble. Suppose you had the only cure for a disease (an analogy which is often used for sin) that was threatening to wipe out the population of the world... wouldn't you try to insist that people try your cure? Wouldn't you be a little annoyed when people said the didn't didn't exist, or could be cured by positive thinking? And wouldn't you feel a little desperate when people insisted that it didn't matter how you tried to cure the disease, just so long as you were a good person? There's this fundamental clash between the idea that spiritual truth is absolute, versus the idea that it's relative. And if there is absolute spritual truth... then it doesn't matter whether you believe something or not--it's true no matter what. That said, I wouldn't wish a painful death on anyone... but anyone who deliberately murders someone ought to be executed. And yeah... it's very ironic. Read the Bible, or the cliffs notes for it, or whatever... Jesus forgave his enemies. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/7/2003 at 18:45 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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SolidSnake Unregistered user |
The trouble _I_ have with religon is that every(almost every) religion preaches that their religion is the 'true' religion and that everyone else is going to hell, jupiter or wherever else. (Case in point, see Mormonism.) |
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DaN Registered user Cursed and Doomed Last page view: 6993 days, 6 hours, 24 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
exactly, what the hell is all that about i went to a church of england primary school and a catholic high school where i did my a levels, thats 14 years worth of religion, 7 years of a few hymns and the odd nativity play (guess who was joseph ;) ) and 7 years of bleesed virgin mary and mass 7 times a year. i gave up religion when i was 7 starting with not bothering singing the hymns. i'm a scientist through and through so i need good solid evidence before i'm happy about something (but non of that "well you've never seen an atom before but you know they exist" stuff). i don't think teaching creationism in school is a good unless looked at only in a religious context along with the creation stories of other religions. teaching it instead instead of or along side normal biology lessions is baaad i'm normally very peace loving and pretty much against violence but people do sick evil things with no sign of remorse guil or regret and maybe once in while they should know how it feels to be on the receiving ebd |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3757 days, 22 hours, 38 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Why do you have a problem with people saying their religion is true?... Do you believe that all religions are equally true? And, if so, how do you reconcile the obvious contradictions between belief systems? Two people, both claiming their own religion is the only true one, are no different than two scientists, each arguing that his own theory is true. Both are possible answers to a problem, but only one can be the true answer. I know you'll say, "Science is not religion"; but if you do say that, I'd like to know how they're different. Science deals with the physical world; religion with the spiritual--but they both deal with truth. Dan, I don't blame you for rejecting organized religion; I rejected that long ago, too, and even today I hate getting stuck into a ritualistic church service. People who depend on rituals tend to forget about the heart of the matter... Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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DaN Registered user Cursed and Doomed Last page view: 6993 days, 6 hours, 24 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
true, scientists can get into quite heated discussions but (normally) they don't think they're going to hell. i was gunna say "but scientific arguements have never caused wars, just a spot of law breaking here and there" but then again you don't get such a backing with scientific ideas, just one small group against the next. a true scientist should chill after seeing the evidence to be honest it's only really a gripe against christianity and islam cuz i've been surrounded by one all my life and i feel the other can be pretty backwards at times. i mean, the jews jsut get picked on, the buddists sit a meditate and paganism is for hippy drop outs and those who think they're all badasses for being witches and stuff so there :P |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7171 days, 1 hour, 3 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
Actaully, there are scientific examples of two different theorys being true. Waves and jumps(?). Contradictory, but both proven. "Why do you have a problem with people saying their religion is true? You say you don't think you're better than anyone else. And you say yours is the only true religion (and everyone else better shape up or we're going to hell). How do you reconcile those two views? Science is not a religion. The jews get picked on? Maybe. But have you looked at the political situation in the middle east recently? |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7171 days, 1 hour, 3 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
Re that H-word: "And wouldn't you feel a little desperate when people insisted that it didn't matter how you tried to cure the disease, just so long as you were a good person?" No. I wouldn't. If I have a cut on my knee I don't care if the stiches are green or pink, as long as they work. You have failed to prove that your self-important Religion is "the cure" you talk about. And until you manage to do so I'd appreciate it if you have the decency to consider other people's views without talking to an authority that you don't have. It is not civil to place yourself on a pedestal and doom others to an imagined fate simple because they refuse to side with you. "anyone who deliberately murders someone ought to be executed" "Read the Bible ... Jesus forgave his enemies." Perhaps you might want to freshen up on the whole 'love thy neighbour' bit, and 'turn the other cheek'. I pointed out the execution because it's ironic (better to laugh than despair), not becuase I think it's right. |
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C<U> Unregistered user |
Hmmm, I heard of that and saw it on CNN, I still don't believe in the death sentence, one thing on that (WHY DID THEY KILL HIM? HE WANTED TO DIE!! SO HE WOULD BE A MARTYR!!! (sp)) that's like rewarding him....I would have put him in jail,so he couldn't do much... BTW; Iridia, Dan are you guys 'spirtual but not religious'? |
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DaN Registered user Cursed and Doomed Last page view: 6993 days, 6 hours, 24 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
hell no i just read a lot of new scientist and fortean times. i have a slight interest in religion is general just cuz it's interesting but no way do i practise any of it. it's nice to read up on it so i have ammo for arguements ;) yeah, true, as far as that guy goes they should have just locked him up. i thought it took forever to get someone executed (ie they spend years rotting on death row). the death penalty is a deterrant that doesn't work. there have been a few extreme one-ff cases were i think putting someone out of theirs and everybody elses misery was a good idea |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3757 days, 22 hours, 38 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Er... when did I say science was a religion?! I just said science and religion are two methods to find truth. Big difference! I wouldn't teach people that Christianity is the only correct religion; I'd teach them that many Christians believe it is. That's an important distinction--the first statement is biased and totally unfair to every other religion out there; the second is just plain information about what people believe. I say my religion is true not because I'm trying to look like I'm better than anyone else but because that's what I believe. You can't be a (biblically correct) Christian without saying Christianity is the way to know God. I mean... what are the alternatives? Either believe your religion is the true one, say all are equally true (and live with the fact that many of them contradict each other), or be an agnostic/atheist. My religion has nothing to do with my status as better or worse than anyone else. The two statements you quoted are not actually contradictory. One refers to what a government ought to do; the other refers to personal relationships. If someone decides to steal my car, I should forgive him; but the government still has a responsibility to prosecute him for theft. By the way. You all seem to be getting a little annoyed... if that's the case, and you want me to, I'll back off and stop talking about religion for a while. I've seen message boards degenerate into flaming when the subject matter was controversial; I don't want that to happen here. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 3 times, last edit on 9/10/2003 at 16:01 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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DaN Registered user Cursed and Doomed Last page view: 6993 days, 6 hours, 24 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
a think a third option is somewhere between. you don't have to believe in all the stories and whatever but still practise some of the rules and traditions. you can follow the 10 commandments but you don't have to believe in jesus and god and that stuff. and christmas too. so many people celebrate it no matter how religious the are (except for those of other religions and i can image a few extreme anti-religious people who cross it out their calendar). aside from all the tackiness and commercialism it's come more of a general holiday than a religious holiday. the inclusion of so many details from other sources (eg, paganism) has given the holiday new meaning, from a birthday celebration to a time when we're supposed to observe a few practical spiritual beliefs like all the love thy neighbour stuff. i think most people keep the religion in christmas just for tradition |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3757 days, 22 hours, 38 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Hm, yeah, I know a lot of people like that. But you'd have to call them religious or traditional, not Christian (as the bible defines it). Like I said, it includes all of the Bible, or at least all of the new testament. Here's what the Bible says... and I am NOT trying to offend anyone here!!!... If you just practice the rules and traditions of Christianity--if you follow the ten commandments but don't "believe in jesus and god and that stuff", then you can't get to know God, haven't accepted his forgiveness, and can't get into heaven. It all comes down to this: What is religion? Is it a set of rules to make us good people? Or is it a path to knowing God? Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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C<U> Unregistered user |
Hmmm, like I said before on religion (they didn't mean all of it) if there was something divine people always mistranslate it. (my sis is one of those 'Oh, I'm spirtual, but not religious people... (she and her friends scare me....) [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/10/2003 at 19:05 (GMT -5) by its author] |
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DaN Registered user Cursed and Doomed Last page view: 6993 days, 6 hours, 24 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
aahh good question! i guess the idea of relgion has changed throughout history. the religions of different ancient cultures and their myths were created to help them make sense of nature; everything from the tides, seasons, to the stars and planets and anything in between. nature is a power force and they attributed it to some god-type force. to appease it in the hope of strong crops, good weather, that kind of thing they worshipped it. but aswe learn more about the mechanics of the world around us people have made up religion to try to understand what's inside us instead (obviously some cultures did that before but not exclusively). i guess initially neither rules or god. maybe god was created to answer the question "why are here?" and all those other types of questions, then the rules come with it. or something like that. (jeeze you read the messages i write on other forums and you'd think i'd have the intellic of a small squirrel, this place actually brings out the intelligent conversation in me.. :-\) |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7171 days, 1 hour, 3 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
I was a little annoyed, I'm sorry. But I really don't like people implying that others are full of sin and without hope simply because they don't follow a specific religion. I found it very insulting. :\ Anyway, moving on. "The two statements you quoted are not actually contradictory. One refers to what a government ought to do; the other refers to personal relationships." What the government ought to do should be what they ought to do in your opinion. In which case it is just as personal a relationship as the second. Which is why I see it as contradictory. It's like the rubbish we have going on here in Australia about the Bali Bombing Terrorists: We have no capital punishment in Australia. All these people say they don't beleive in capital punishment. Yet they say they respect the right of the indonesian government to sentance these people to death. Now to me it's pretty simple. You either think it's right or wrong. That's all. Saying I think it's wrong but I think it's right to let them do whatever they want to do is contradictory. |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7171 days, 1 hour, 3 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
Just to state my opinion quite clearly so there's no confusion. I want to be a good person who lives a good life. I think that if there is such a thing as an afterlife that rewards people for their actions in life then it will reward them based on who they are, not what they believe in. I don't care about getting into heaven. If one has to believe in God and Jesus to get into heaven then it's not a place I want to be. I think the concept of heaven as a place in the way many christians have described it is a hypocritical one, at odds with what they would see themselves. It is not tolerant, forgiving, open-minded or kind. It is an elitest enclave that subs it's face at the majority world and says 'I told you so.' If that is the nature of the place, so would be the nature of the people who reside in it. Why would anyone want to be stuck with a bunch of people like that? |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7171 days, 1 hour, 3 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
"Er... when did I say science was a religion?! I just said science and religion are two methods to find truth. Big difference!" ... "I know you'll say, "Science is not religion"; but if you do say that, I'd like to know how they're different. Science deals with the physical world; religion with the spiritual--but they both deal with truth." The bold sentance implies you think they are not different, as you challence us to prove that difference. Therefore you think they are the same. Therefore you think science is a kind of Religion. (yes, I'm pedantic.) |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3757 days, 22 hours, 38 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
Aha; that's how you got confused. I meant that I thought you might say, "Science is not religion, and therefore they can't be compared". I would say, "Science is not a religion, but science and religion both deal with truth; therefore it's possible to draw parallels between them." Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 8 hours, 16 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
Iridia: "You can't be a (biblically correct) Christian without saying Christianity is the way to know God." . . . By whose Biblical interpretation? I am a Christian, but I think that Christianity is simply a way to know God. After all, there were millions of people who lived before Christ, and I believe many of them knew God. If a person, with true and heartfelt repentence, asks God for forgiveness, and if they try to live a life with no idols other than God, loving their neighbors as them selves (Golden rule and all) Do you believe they will be saved or condemned? |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 8 hours, 16 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
Lamaros: Re: Right/Wrong/etc. "Now to me it's pretty simple. You either think it's right or wrong. That's all." Considering what I thought to be your views, I find it odd that you often divide the world into black and white, without any shades of grays. Can't somebody believe that Capital Punishment is wrong, but not be certain enough in that belief to want to impose it on others? Or can't one think that revenge is wrong, but realize that others have to come to that understanding themselves. Can you see how your posts on this page come across (to me, at least) as having the same righteous indignation as any fundamentalist preacher? For example: how, by claiming another person should not place him/herself on a pedestal, you are placing yourself on a pedestal? Or how, by condemning somebody for saying "Other beliefs are wrong," you, yourself, are saying that their beliefs are wrong. [Edited 2 times, last edit on 9/11/2003 at 17:17 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 8 hours, 16 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
Irida: For somebody who once admitted that her beliefs were probably not 100% correct, you use phrases like "Here's what the Bible says . . ." rather than "Here's what I believe the Bible says . . ." an awful lot. It is as if you are afraid to even acknowledge your own doubts and possible fallibility. You always write with such finality. There was a post where you felt your entire religion would have been proven wrong if your soul was reincarnated, rather than saved or condemned. Can you see how such rigidness makes me worry for you? Many of your beliefs are expressed as "The Bible says . . ." or "God is . . ." Are each of these beliefs so potentially destructive to your spiritual foundation, as well? [Edited 2 times, last edit on 9/11/2003 at 14:46 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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DaN Registered user Cursed and Doomed Last page view: 6993 days, 6 hours, 24 minutes and 29 seconds ago. |
the bible is ancient and like many religious texts is in need of a second edition if she doesn't believe her beliefs are 100% correct it makes sense to write what the bible says and not her own interpretation |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4699 days, 8 hours, 16 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
DaN: Can you (or anybody) definitively and correctly tell me what the Bible says? More to the point, can you tell me what it means? I will be surprised if you can. You may be able to tell me the words of a particular translation, and, if we both knew Greek and Hebrew, you would even be able to tell me the original words that were used, but that does not tell me the meaning. The best I think you (or anybody) could do is tell me what you think the Bible means. Heck, even then, I would be interpretting the words you use to express your interpretation. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/11/2003 at 14:25 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3757 days, 22 hours, 38 minutes and 44 seconds ago. |
When I post something, isn't it a given that it's my opinion? I'm not setting myself up as the standard of 100% Truth; I'm imperfect and I might end up being mistaken about some things. When I interpret the Bible, I can never be 100% sure about the details. I could be wrong about lots of things; but the big picture is really, obviously impossible to miss: God exists, he hates evil, but wants to communicate with us. Unfortunately, we have a problem with being evil (Definition: Not loving God and/or your neighbor). God, who didn't want to condemn us, carried out judgment on Jesus instead of on us. So, anyone who wants to know God--can. Since the sin problem got taken care of, all we've got to do is ask, and we're eligible for heaven. Anything beyond that little outline is, to my eyes, uncertain; but not so uncertain that I have to hedge and say, "Well, I'm not sure, but..." every time I think about it. The whole point of a debate like this is to make claims about what we know to be true, and then to check them against what others believe. None of us can be 100% sure that s/he is right; but the more of us there are, and the more opinions we look at, the more likely it is that we'll reinforce the true ideas while pointing out flaws in the untrue ones. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 5 times, last edit on 9/11/2003 at 15:44 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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