Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / Atheism and Church vs. State
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3970 days, 1 hour, 23 minutes and 11 seconds ago. |
When I post something, isn't it a given that it's my opinion? I'm not setting myself up as the standard of 100% Truth; I'm imperfect and I might end up being mistaken about some things. When I interpret the Bible, I can never be 100% sure about the details. I could be wrong about lots of things; but the big picture is really, obviously impossible to miss: God exists, he hates evil, but wants to communicate with us. Unfortunately, we have a problem with being evil (Definition: Not loving God and/or your neighbor). God, who didn't want to condemn us, carried out judgment on Jesus instead of on us. So, anyone who wants to know God--can. Since the sin problem got taken care of, all we've got to do is ask, and we're eligible for heaven. Anything beyond that little outline is, to my eyes, uncertain; but not so uncertain that I have to hedge and say, "Well, I'm not sure, but..." every time I think about it. The whole point of a debate like this is to make claims about what we know to be true, and then to check them against what others believe. None of us can be 100% sure that s/he is right; but the more of us there are, and the more opinions we look at, the more likely it is that we'll reinforce the true ideas while pointing out flaws in the untrue ones. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 5 times, last edit on 9/11/2003 at 15:44 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3970 days, 1 hour, 23 minutes and 11 seconds ago. |
If a person, with true and heartfelt repentence, asks God for forgiveness, and if they try to live a life with no idols other than God, loving their neighbors as them selves (Golden rule and all) Do you believe they will be saved or condemned? All it takes is asking for forgiveness. The rest is good, but not necessary (i.e., if you slipped up in following the golden rule, you wouldn't suddenly be thrown into hell). Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/11/2003 at 15:43 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4911 days, 11 hours and 41 seconds ago. |
Iridia: Re: Fallibility Some of your posts imply that there is no doubt. Phrases such as "It's obvious that . . ." or, for example "you'd have to be mentally retarded not to understand it . . . " seem to imply that you are awfully certain of yourself. I think phrases such as "I think . . ." "I believe . . ." and "In my opinion . . ." are necessary. I consider humility and the acknowledgement of our own fallibility to be central to Christianity. Without such phrases and acknowledgement, the phrase "This is what the Bible says . . ." implies "This is what the Bible says, and if you don't agree with me, then you are mentally retarded." If a person is closed minded or only looking to reinforce their existing ideas, I don't think they will learn much from debate. [Edited 2 times, last edit on 9/11/2003 at 16:38 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4911 days, 11 hours and 41 seconds ago. |
HEY!!! No Fair!!! You editted your post! You originally wrote that somebody would have to be mentally retarded not to understand the Bible!! Admit it!! I think you really do need to put some more "I believe" bits in your posts. Without such affirmations of fallibility, do you see how easy it is to claim that other people are so obviously wrong that they are idiots? It is so easy to slip like that that you actually wrote it, initially. Even in you editted post, you say the meaning of the Bible is "obviously impossible to miss." It reminds me of the fellow in Religious Beliefs who slipped and said he wouldn't walk in Compton because he was white, and that he would be hurt in a Gay bar because he was straight. It is very easy to lose our way into Bigotry and intolerance. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/11/2003 at 16:35 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4911 days, 11 hours and 41 seconds ago. |
Iridia: Re: Christianity/Salvation/etc. I'll take that for a "Yes. Such a person would be saved." Two more questions: 1) Would such a person know God? 2) In order to be a Christian, does a person have to believe in Jesus Christ? (Could you put "yes" or "no" somewhere in your answers to designate whether or not you agree) |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7310 days, 13 hours, 38 minutes and 18 seconds ago. |
Im far too tired to read those posts (im sneaking in time in-between all my homework to read these) but i think i can comment on a few things. Sorry if i repeat anything. RE: Fallibility Why do you need to put "in my opinion" or "i believe" in front of everything you say? Of course its in your opinion, your writing it (unless of course someone is forcing you to write this, very unlikely.) Obviously, me and Lamaros disagree on the orgin of the world. Does that mean now that i have to say "in my opinion" in front of everything? No, of course not. (or "in my opinion, no, of course not.") it starts to sound ridiculous. Im not quite sure what your question are really asking. Can you please reiterate? (: |
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C<U> Unregistered user |
Humans/people (us) are failible, seriously, that's why pencils have an erase button and computer documents undo. (<-crap) I think anyone who belives in 'god' goes under the christan-type category. Now on creation, what if there was no creation, what if -everything- was just there... (just a idea) To be honest I don't trust the bible 100% they potray God in too many (bad) ways, as well as the rules etc... (what if it is wrong? whoever translated it?), that actually goes with most religious texts for me. BTW; OT I usually finish my homework in about 40min, have just enough time to check this forum. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/11/2003 at 19:37 (GMT -5) by its author] |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7310 days, 13 hours, 38 minutes and 18 seconds ago. |
ive got tons of homework this year... and i dont know why. 100 problems in algebra today (ugh!) a map of the united states, containing the industries of states, etc. (drawn freehand.) and a science report. Its only the third week! And i need to pass this year. I took an honors algebra class for high school credits, and the grade carries over to next year. An F this year, and an A next year, would mean a C. Not too great when starting off. (: |
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C<U> Unregistered user |
Ouch, I only have about 60 problems a day in Algebra I, and only have to write 1 P essays, and study for tests in English I. I only have (everyone has) 4 blocks, I want to take a fifth (art) next year. |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7310 days, 13 hours, 38 minutes and 18 seconds ago. |
Wow, i have 6. I already have art, but they offer a guitar class that i want to take. You dont have PE? (: |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7383 days, 3 hours, 47 minutes and 56 seconds ago. |
Caladriel: "Considering what I thought to be your views, I find it odd that you often divide the world into black and white:" Yeah, I should have written "Right, Wrong, or not sure/undecided." I mean from a personal view, not a view one expresses to others. It is wrong for me, and because of that I think what Indonesia is doing is wrong: I think capital punishment is wrong. I believe that Indonesia has the right to do what they are doing, but I still think it is wrong. I allow that other people have the right to do as they wish, but in my mind actions which are wrong for me to do will be just as wrong when others do them. I think if I were to say 'Capital punishment is wrong' and then turn around and say 'I don't want capital punishment in Australia, but I think it's ok that Indonesia has it.' I would feel like a hypocryte. But my personal thought are just that, I think what I think, and I allow others to think what they think. But that doesn't mean that I don't disagree with them at times. RE White, Black and Grey: If I wasn't completely sure about my view on capital punishment I wouldn't act like I was. Once someone acts like they are sure, then I assume they should keep that consistency, lest they undermine their own viewpoint. I am not a Athiest, because I do not disbelieve in God or Gods. Neither do I follow any specific Religion or belief system. I hover in the grey areas inbetween, thinking, arguing, learning, and being myself. But on the specific issue of Capital Punishment I am not grey. Hope that cleared that up in a way that makes sense. [Edited 2 times, last edit on 9/11/2003 at 22:52 (GMT -5) by Lamaros] |
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Lamaros Registered user The sieve Last page view: 7383 days, 3 hours, 47 minutes and 56 seconds ago. |
I have no problem with people saying they think Capital punishment is ok because at least then there is a way for the conversation to go forward. Capital Punishment questions: 1: Do you think Capital Punishment is ok? 2: Do you agree with the punishment of the Bali Bombers? I take much more issue with those who answer 'no, yes' than with those who say 'yes, yes' or 'not sure, not sure'. That's because in my experience it is almost impossible to have a productive discussion with a hypocryte. [Edited 2 times, last edit on 9/11/2003 at 22:51 (GMT -5) by Lamaros] |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3970 days, 1 hour, 23 minutes and 11 seconds ago. |
Yes, I edited my post. If you'd have counted lines, you would've seen there were nearly thirty of them... And yes, I said I thought people would have to be mentally retarded not to understand the main ideas of the Bible, especially with a good modern-language translation. Not that they'd have the same opinions about them as I do, or that they'd believe them; but anyone with basic literacy could get the gist of what the Bible says. Interpretation, of course, is a different matter. The point was not to say "People are stupid if they don't believe the Bible" but "The Bible is easy enough for anyone to understand". --Caladriel said:-- Two more questions: 1) Would such a person know God? Yes. 2) In order to be a Christian, does a person have to believe in Jesus Christ? If they've heard about Jesus, and understood what he's all about, then yes... but since some people never have the opportunity, there have to be exceptions. If they haven't--say they lived in the BC era or in a Communist nation where all religion was prohibited--then they'd only responsible for what they know. I'm not sure if I'd call those people Christians, since the name implies you follow Christ; but I suppose that if, acting on what they know, they sincerely seek God... they'd be following Christ without ever knowing his name. And I'm editing my post again to insert the statement that these are my opinions... Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 2 times, last edit on 9/12/2003 at 19:47 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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C<U> Unregistered user |
OT; I don't count PE, I count it as sadistic torture (so when I get grades less than perfect... (just kidding) OnT; I think other countries should do as they please as long as it isn't slavery, human torture or something of the sort... The bible, is very easy to translate...in about 100+ different ways, I think whoever(s) wrote it (it certainly wasn't God) must have translated it according to their will with a slight hint of the truth, I don't trust a book humans write.. (even if it was with divine intervention (that is unless God gave them info while they wrote..) |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3970 days, 1 hour, 23 minutes and 11 seconds ago. |
--quote-- The bible, is very easy to translate...in about 100+ different ways, I think whoever(s) wrote it (it certainly wasn't God) must have translated it according to their will with a slight hint of the truth, I don't trust a book humans write.. (even if it was with divine intervention (that is unless God gave them info while they wrote..) --quote-- The Bible, however, makes exactly that claim... that God gave people the information to write down. Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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DaN Registered user Cursed and Doomed Last page view: 7205 days, 9 hours, 8 minutes and 56 seconds ago. |
actually i was thinking about the whole translation thing when i wrote my last post but forgot about it. it would be interesting to find out how different versions of the bible you could make just by translating it differently (going straight from the original language to english), and also to see how much of the original is missing having been translated via so many other languages |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3970 days, 1 hour, 23 minutes and 11 seconds ago. |
People have studied this, actually... from what I can tell (especially from things like the Dead Sea scrolls) the Bible has changed very little--usually just copyist's errors that don't really change the message. But since I don't remember the authors of the books I've read, you may want to do your own research. I've yet to find two theologians who agree on anything! Die Gedanken sind Frei |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4911 days, 11 hours and 41 seconds ago. |
Lavos: If somebody never uses the words "I think" or "I believe" then I think they are in danger of thinking that their beliefs and opinions are facts. Such people never admit to themselves that they could be wrong. They may even think other people are mentally retarded for not agreeing with them. |
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C<U> Unregistered user |
On the Bible trust thing while they were writing of afterwards? Seriously, I just don't trust the Bible, its too old with not enough proof. (I'm asking about the people who wrote it, what if it wasn't who they claimed to be.) |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4911 days, 11 hours and 41 seconds ago. |
Iridia: Re: Christianity Okay, now let's summarize our posts. In the past, you have claimed that Christianity is the only way to know God, and that if a person has heard of Christ, s/he has to believe in Christ to be a Christian. Yet, I described a way to know God, with which you agreed, that is available to people, even if they do not believe in Christ -- Many Jews, Hindus and Muslims ask God for forgiveness, and try to live a life with no idols other than God, loving their neighbors as themselves. Do you see the contradiction? Additionally, you said you could not be a (Biblically) correct Christian, unless you believed that the Bible was the way to know God (As opposed to "a way," I inferred) The person I described does not necessarily use the Bible. Since you agree that such a person can know God, does that mean you are not a proper (Biblical) Christian? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/15/2003 at 19:43 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4911 days, 11 hours and 41 seconds ago. |
C: The Bible is comprised of several independant books, written at different times, that were collected and bound into an anthology (not even in chronological order). It is not like a novel that was written end to end. Personally, I think that if a person can get past their own pride, fears, desires, assumptions, etc., they can find the spirit of God's words within the books of the Bible. I think we can trust the Bible, but perhaps we should not entirely trust our and others interpretations of it. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4911 days, 11 hours and 41 seconds ago. |
DaN: There is an entire set of stories, called the Apocrypha, which some Churches include in the Bible, but others do not. I once found a differing hebrew translation for a passage in Jeremiah. The reflexive congugation of Halal (which means to praise in Hebrew) is usually defined as "to boast about" or "to glorify," but when it was roughly translated as "receive/accept praise for" I found incredible new depths of meaning in the passage. |
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Iridia Moderator on this forum YASD Last page view: 3970 days, 1 hour, 23 minutes and 11 seconds ago. |
When I say "God", I mean the God that's in the Bible... I guess I didn't realize you were referring to "any god", Caladriel. Of course, like I said, someone may be following the God of the Bible without even knowing it--especially if that person has never had Christianity properly explained to them. Die Gedanken sind Frei [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/14/2003 at 15:15 (GMT -5) by Iridia] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4911 days, 11 hours and 41 seconds ago. |
Iridia: I did mean God (hence the singular form with the capital 'G') The Jews believe in God, as do the Muslims, and many Hindus believe that their gods are simply aspects/perspectives of a singular divine being. I may think many of the beliefs these faiths have are incorrect, but I believe that if they ask God for forgiveness, and try to live a life with no idols other than God, loving their neighbors as themselves, then they will be forgiven. If it helps, just consider those Jews who, with true and heartfelt repentence, ask God for forgiveness, and try to live a life with no idols other than God, loving their neighbors as themselves. Do you see the contradiction I run into from your posts? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/15/2003 at 19:42 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7310 days, 13 hours, 38 minutes and 18 seconds ago. |
Caladriel: I am assured that none of us are completely right on any of these subjects. therefor, when we write something it is obviously in our opinion. most of us believe that what we are saying is as close to the truth, as far as we know. And i think most people have an open mind here (from what ive seen) and that they can admit when they are wrong, and i havent seen anyone call anyone else called, "retarded" because they dont believe the same thing. (in case you couldnt figure it out by the fact that i wrote this, this is my opinion, and it has not been scientifically proven. even though it seems obvious.) (: [Edited 1 time, last edit on 9/14/2003 at 15:53 (GMT -5) by Lavos] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4911 days, 11 hours and 41 seconds ago. |
Lavos: Perhaps. I think many people think that their beliefs and opinions are facts. Look at George Bush. :-) |
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Jonesy Registered user Liberate Te Ex Inferis Last page view: 6720 days, 5 hours, 21 minutes and 55 seconds ago. |
Nice one! "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."- Voltaire "Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven."- John Milton, Paradise Lost "Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth, follow only beauty, and obey only love."- Kahlil Gibran "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it."- Voltaire. "What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist."-Salman Rushdie |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7310 days, 13 hours, 38 minutes and 18 seconds ago. |
yeah. good point. i dont think thats anyone here though. (: |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4911 days, 11 hours and 41 seconds ago. |
Hey, you never know . . . BTW, Jonesy, I think Marx would disagree with you. Heh, "The fact is . . ." is almost as dangerous a phrase as "It is obvious that . . ." |
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Lavos Registered user Cardiovascular Endurance Last page view: 7310 days, 13 hours, 38 minutes and 18 seconds ago. |
unless maybe someone here is really george bush. anyone? admit to it now! ... (: |
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