Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / God and Satan
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 3 hours, 17 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
I am moving a couple statments about God and Satan out of the Darwinism thread. For sanity's sake, please try to keep responses to 20 lines or less. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/21/2007 at 08:56 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 3 hours, 17 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
In Darwinism, Morio wrote: If god is almighty and created the universe and everything, why didn't he make it foolproof? Why did he have to satan and everything eveil too? |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 3 hours, 17 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
In Darwinism, MewTo wrote: We have a choice: we can choose between God and Satan. If we didn't have a choice, we would be just mindless puppets. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 3 hours, 17 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
Morio and MewTo: Personally, I have not come to a conclusion about how big a deal Satan is. IMHO, we are more than capable of messing things up on our own. I think God was creating free will -- allowing us to choose something other than Itself on which to base our lives. The view I have come to accept is that God didn't create evil. Rather, Evil is the result of us choosing something other than God on which to base or center our lives. More poetically: Evil is the absense of God. I don't think we are choosing between God and Satan. I think we are choosing between God and anything else (Our own righteousness, our wealth, our social standing, even our families) [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/21/2007 at 09:04 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Morio Registered user Holy Champion of ADoM Last page view: 3902 days, 7 hours, 12 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
"Evil is the absense of God." So, you are saying all atheists are evil? Also Why did god create the tree of knowledge? He knew Adam and Eve would eat the fruits. Also why does diseases exist, why did god create those? "I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but I know World War 4 with be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4243 days, 8 hours, 56 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
Without free choice you can't have acts of good - need darkness to have light, yada yada yada. Without vulnerabilities mankind wouldn't have the ability to show love and support to each other. Without oppressive humans we wouldn't have those that stand up and commit great acts of courage or integrity against them. Otherwise we'd just be animals, without the same capacity for love and tenderness. I must say though the whole idea of the devil has always seemed silly to me, even when I was religious. It seems to me like a scapegoat for what is just the evil thoughts or actions of humans. Parts of the bible featuring the devil as a character, like the story of Job, or Jesus' temptation in the desert, verge on the farcical. And too often has the devil been used as an excuse to target other humans. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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F50 Registered user Last page view: 5480 days, 21 minutes and 42 seconds ago. |
Why does suffering exist? (replaced diseases from Morio's question) This is one of the ultimate questions. This article This article may help some but this is probably one of the most-asked least-answered questions you could ask. I agree with that article mostly but not necessarily anything else on that site. The reason for the tree as I see it was to allow a choice to be made. As for Satan: Yes, it has too often been used as an excuse. However, the stories of demon possession in the Bible are far from farcical. It is almost impossible to keep it down to twenty lines. "If the bread weights that much in the draklor chain, then it's no wonder so many die of starvation. AND - what kind of IRON RATION weights as much as an iron shield?! A dinner for four, oven included? ;)" -Maelstrom [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/21/2007 at 17:54 (GMT -5) by F50] |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4072 days, 9 hours, 38 minutes and 24 seconds ago. |
What Darren Grey and Caladriel and F50 said - Free choice and you can't have light without darkness. And to react on something Morio said: In my opinion, being evil or not does not depend on actually subscribing to some belief system or not. There are a lot of christians (or other members of a religion) who feel they're better than all the other non-christians (or those not member of their religion), that you shouldn't raise a finger of someone not believing in God (Allah/Corellius/blabla) is hurt or starving or whatever, and generally do little but going to church every Sunday and looking scornfully at those who don't. At the same time, there are declared atheists who donate to charity causes and do so generously, generally always helping wherever they can, always thinking of the poor, homeless, hungry, sick, oppressed and so on. I can certainly say that even though I'd consider myself christian, I would prefer the company of the latter a thousand times over that of the former. (Good Samaritan anyone?) Put in other words: You can very well act according to how God would want you to act without believing in him, and I don't think God would care. If someone helps the poor and homeless with all his heart while still saying "I don't think God exists"... Well, I think the good deeds outweigh the bad there. You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/22/2007 at 08:51 (GMT -5) by Silfir] |
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Gozer Unregistered user |
While I have no desire to offend anyone, I can't resist contributing my two cents on this subject. I think both God and Satan are artificial concepts. The first is a psychological crutch; the second is a useful excuse. |
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Mewto Registered user Last page view: 3603 days, 11 hours, 18 minutes and 41 seconds ago. |
Silfir, you obviously haven't met a "true" Christian yet. I think that 90% or Christians are just religious, they go to church to improve their image and because they might get certain benefits, but very few are true Christians. Funny you mentioned the Good Samaritan, true Christians would do just that. The priests that passed the dying man were fakes and hypocrites, they didn't believe in God, but insisted that people follow the Law. Why do you think Jesus told that tale? He accused them openly several times of being hypocrites and of mocking God. That was one of the reasons they wanted him killed, right? An example of a true Christian is Mother Teresa... she spent all her time helping people and teaching them about God. How many atheists do that? Those people you mentioned that donate large sums of money to charity causes are generous and probably feel sorry for poor people. Bu there's a difference between Teresa and those people: one believed that her purpose in life was to help people, while those kind, rich people give money, but that's because they have enough of it. There was even a tale in the Bible, about a woman who gave two "pennies" to the Church, but to God it was worth a lot more than the two bars of gold richer people gave... they gave their surplus, while the old woman gave her last money. I'm not very good at putting my thoughts in order, but hopefully you'll understand what I mean :/ For the Horde! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/22/2007 at 09:11 (GMT -5) by Mewto] |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4072 days, 9 hours, 38 minutes and 24 seconds ago. |
I don't think we're disagreeing in anything here, Mewto. My point with the Good Samaritan was that you need not go to church or actually think of yourself as christian to act like one would. I also think the question "How many atheists do that" is a bit prejudiced and beside the point. All I'm saying is that it doesn't matter if atheist or christian - it's more or less your actions and the intent behind them that matters. It's true that the two pennies of the poor woman are worth more than the bars of gold of the millionaire... But the bars of gold are still worth something, right? As long as you do only a little bit for others, you are acting christian. Of course, the more you give up to help others, the more worthy of praise you are. Very few people are "true christians" like Mother Teresa... But there are very many who at least do SOMETHING good instead of blowing their money on ale and whores. And a fair number of these are atheist... You can probably find a lot that are non-christian in this group. Nonetheless, they are acting like christians, helping others, making a difference, and I respect them more than I would respect fundamental christians who spend their life spouting words of hate at infidels and homosexuals without doing anything charitable at all. You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4153 days, 14 hours, 13 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
in such case why you are calling good guys christians? allmost all religions tell people to act good. even islam makes point about helping for poor living people. A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) |
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Mewto Registered user Last page view: 3603 days, 11 hours, 18 minutes and 41 seconds ago. |
Yeah, but the Coran has that part about Jihad... which unfortunately is taken too seriously. For the Horde! |
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Gozer Unregistered user |
1. It is Qu'ran - not Coran. 2. Actually, jihad is not taken seriously enough - instead it is too often used to further the political and personal agendas of rogue individuals rather than applied for its intended purpose (do you even know what jihad *really* refers to?) 3. Islam is FAR from being the only religion that preaches a call to arms. |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4243 days, 8 hours, 56 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
Religion is not the only excuse used for wars and violence - nationalism and communism are prime examples. It's nothing to do with the actual belief systems really - there are simply always those that need a reason for violence or trying to gain some victory over others. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4153 days, 14 hours, 13 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
literraly jihad refers to fight in the name of god, iirc. i have very few ideas about exact religious meaning... and i don't see why crusade is a bit better than jihad. may be becouse of fact i live in country, which in her history have dealt with crusaders for a couple centuries. even after being christianized... in general islam is about 500 younger as a religion. take look at christians 500 years back. crusades, conquer of new world, inquisition. not much to be proud of. compared to this islam is very moderate religion. A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) |
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F50 Registered user Last page view: 5480 days, 21 minutes and 42 seconds ago. |
Jihad can mean an internal struggle rather than an external struggle (ie. a struggle with the equivalent of sin) "If the bread weights that much in the draklor chain, then it's no wonder so many die of starvation. AND - what kind of IRON RATION weights as much as an iron shield?! A dinner for four, oven included? ;)" -Maelstrom |
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Mewto Registered user Last page view: 3603 days, 11 hours, 18 minutes and 41 seconds ago. |
If you want to play with names Gozer, it's fine by me. But it's actually Qur'an, not Qu'ran. Now that this very important matter is settled, can I go on? They (usually) refer to Jihad as their holy war. And believe me they take it seriously... their leaders might use it as an excuse, but the ordinary people there are insane. I've recently seen a fragment of a movie, don't know the name, but it was about the conversion of a muslim to christianism. He was telling his story, and it freaked me out. He was training with fellow muslims in a training center to participate in the war against christians... the people there were crazed. One of their leaders brought a Bible for them to study or something, and everyone there said that they'd rather kill themselves than touch anything related to Christianity. My point is that those people weren't rational anymore, they were so willing to take part in the Jihad. The crusades, the Inquisition and all that took place simply because the Pope and/or the kings of that time were greedy... they used Christianity as a facade. Sure we're not proud of that, but I have to compare it to what Bush is doing right now... helping the oil indus. I mean those "poor" people in Iraq. And think about it Soirana, those were different times. They were called the Dark Ages for many reasons, but one of them was because the Church was almighty. So we can't really compare Jihad to the crusades, those took place in times when half the world was still undiscovered. But crazed lunatics with weapons killing people everyday in the 21th century? Doesn't sound right to me. Gozer, on your third point: I know of no other religions that preach Jihad or holy wars or whatever, I'm not that interested in religions. But those religions you're talking about, do they have fanatics like Islam? If you look at news from Baghdad, you'll see that every day there's a bombing... If there are any other religions that preach a call to arms, they're definitely being silent, because I haven't heard of any bloody incident that wasn't made by muslims. Buddhists are peaceful, I don't see any news about violence in India on BBC, Christians haven't had a war in quite some time (that Irish vs British war was more because of "ratial" and cultural differences, IMO), Jews are surrounded by muslims but are doing quite well, despite the very often attacks. My home country was under Turkish occupation since the 15th century, IIRC, and I can tell you that in those 250-300 years they reigned over it, my people learned a lot about corruption and bad habits. For the Horde! |
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4153 days, 14 hours, 13 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
don't mess Dark Ages with Middle Ages. these are very different. Dark ages end arround 1000, crusades start at around 1100. you mght call inquisition and crusade Bush a like actions, but what they were helping when? and whom they are helping now anyway? you can't teach democracy with gun in your hands. islam by itself isn't oppossed to christianity. iirc, they do recognize Jesus being sort of prophet. A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4243 days, 8 hours, 56 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
Wow, talk about extreme ignorance... Didn't anyone learn about Islam at school, or doesn't anyone at least know any real Muslims? Some of these views are way out of focus - you can't judge a whole religion based on a video of a few crazed radicals. Yeah, there's some people that use Islam as a symbol to project hatred and violence, but that's really nothing to do with Islam itself. The majority of Muslims are peaceful - Islam itself is known as a religion of peace. The conflicts going on in the world are mostly about politics mixed in with racism - religion is just used as a justification and cover, or a way for leaders like Bin Laden to coerce and brainwash the young and easily influenced. There's plenty of extremism in other religions. Violent attacks on homosexuals and abortionists by Christians, Israeli attacks on Lebanon and Gaza, persecution of Muslims in India (and in many more parts of the world these days), fighting between Sikhs and Hindus. Buddhism is the only religion I can think of without any real controversy attached, but it's not really a big belief system (and these's probably stuff I don't know about). In the present world climate Islam gets a lot of poor rep because there's a lot of bad politics between America and the Middle-East. A few decades ago Communism was the big evil, and a few decades before that dictators in Europe. To quote a classic video game: War. War never changes... Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4153 days, 14 hours, 13 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
speaking about buddhism: http://www.buddhistinformation.com/place_for_a_righteous_war_in_bud.htm claiming it not being a big system is rather interesting. thay take about 6percent of people all around globe. large enough for me. A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) |
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Mewto Registered user Last page view: 3603 days, 11 hours, 18 minutes and 41 seconds ago. |
Right now I live in a block where about 60% percent of the people are muslims. So yeah, I've met them in real life. I'm not ignorant, I've talked with quite a lot of muslims at my school while in Norway, and some of them actually condemned their religion. Soirana you're right, they do recognize Jesus as some sort of prophet, but so do many Jews. That's where they fail. I don't know many prophets that could walk on water. And about Bush, I think he's a jackass, so I wasn't defending him, lol. He's doing something disturbingly similar to what the Spanish explorers did to South American civilizations. [quote]Some of these views are way out of focus - you can't judge a whole religion based on a video of a few crazed radicals.[/quote] Are you watching the news? Last month a church or a missionary outpost was attacked in Turkey, and 3 people were killed. Same thing happened last year. People there have lost it, and I'm not talking about a group of 50 people. Even if the rest of the population doesn't actually do anything wrong, they support those "courageous" people. So they're actually a lot of crazed radicals. The Turks used religion as one of the motives for expansion in the 15th century, what reason do they have now? Anyone remembers 9/11th? Maybe you can't judge a whole religion from a video (and you're right about this, I don't believe this religion is bad just from one video), but Bin Laden convinced lots of people to join this holy war. Unfortunately, they actually believe in what Bin Laden says, that sacrificing they're lives will surely give them access into "Heaven". Here is their description of Heaven. "Paradise is the eternal garden of physical pleasures and spiritual delights. Suffering will be absent and bodily desires will be satisfied. All wishes will be met. Palaces, servants, riches, streams of wine, milk and honey, pleasant fragrances, soothing voices, pure partners for intimacy; a person will never get bored or have enough!" AFAIK, the Israeli were only defending their territory. Not exactly an easy feat when surrounded by millions of jew-haters, is it? How many bomb and suicide attacks do the Jews make? How many Muslims die daily because of Jews? Now ask the other way around... Maybe you've gotten the impression I'm racist or anti-muslim, that's not true. Two thirds of my friends were of Arabic origin, now that I think about it. They're actually cool guys and we got along perfectly, when they weren't trying to convert me, that is ^^. For the Horde! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/24/2007 at 03:16 (GMT -5) by Mewto] |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4243 days, 8 hours, 56 minutes and 14 seconds ago. |
"So they're actually a lot of crazed radicals." "Maybe you've gotten the impression I'm racist or anti-muslim, that's not true." Something about these two statements doesn't quite fit... My main problem with what you're saying is overgeneralisation - you attribute the actions and beliefs of a few to over a billion followers across the world. It's like saying all Catholics are paedophiles because a lot of priests end up abusing kids, or all animal rights supporters are extremists because of crazy people in PETA that grab the headlines (though I personally don't like animals rights people in general...) You can't judge that number of people by what you see on the news, nor can you presume to know that they all support what's going on. (many do, I'm sure, but that's partly due to ignorance - a lot of Americans back the Iraq war, but that doesn't make them evil, just stupid) "Soirana you're right, they do recognize Jesus as some sort of prophet, but so do many Jews. That's where they fail. I don't know many prophets that could walk on water." What, like Moses parting the red sea? Or all the modern-day miracles that get attributed to Mary and the saints? What a daft statement... Muslims worship Jesus as a major prophet and follow his teachings, in the same way they revere Moses or Abraham. But to them he is not the son of god, he's simply a major prophet. Mohammed is also a prophet, but the last and greatest in their beliefs, and the one that to them restored the true message of God that had been distorted by many Jews and Christians (very similar to what Christians believe about Jesus and the New Testament superceding the Old). Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4153 days, 14 hours, 13 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
iirc, Israeli was and is defending their historical teritory. that is at certain point they had no teritory, which was given to them by certain international agreement, than they basicaly expanded that teritory becouse it was thir historical lands and better defense points. think a bit: if eveyone claims their historical lands taking most favorouble time, there won't be enough land on Earth. after Soviet Union breaked down there waere some people speaking we should claim our historical land of Great Lithuanian Dukeness. that is at least very big chump of Belarussia. luckily we never did that. A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 3 hours, 17 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
MewTo: Re: Jihad Actually, the Koran (or Quran) does not mention jihad. Many Christians have preached the equivalent of jihad. I agree with you that the Crusades/Inquisitions/witch trials were done by people using Christianity as an excuse -- That they were really motivated for themselves -- Why do you not grant the same explanation for the Islamic radicals? IMHO, one of the basic teachings of Christianity is that we are all horribly broken and sinful. When I am being faithful to God, I cannot look at a Muslim and say "I am more righteous than you". P.S. Don't forget the 20 line rule!!! (If you are talking about different subjects, break it up into different posts) [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/24/2007 at 10:18 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 3 hours, 17 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
Morio: Re: Atheism vs absense of God IMHO, Evil does not apply to a person. We are too complex. Evil apply to actions or situations. Thus, no, I do not think that atheists are evil. Silfir kinda covered this, but to phrase it differently, an atheist may claim not to believe in God, but that does not mean that God is absent from their lives. I believe that God is absent (and evil occurs) when people start making themselves, or power, or family or wealth or what have you as the meaning for/driving force of/center of their lives. This leads to evil actions and evil (broken) situations. BTW, I think that sometimes people make worship of God the center of their lives, rather than God, Itself. This leads to brokeness and "evil" as readily as basing one's worth on anything else, other than God. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/24/2007 at 09:34 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 3 hours, 17 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
Darren: Re: Daft Statements and extreme ignorance If possible, could you please try to keep the editorial comments away from the personal attacks? You are not expected to agree with everybody -- that is the point of debate -- but let's debate the ideas in ways that encourage others. If you really think somebody is being foolish, please try to enlighten them, rather than to brow-beat them. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 3 hours, 17 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
MewTo: Re: paradise Where did you find that description of heaven? I am willing to bet that it is Bin Laden's description of heaven (or some other radical's description) rather than Islam's. I am not the best Koranic scholar, but I do not think that that quote is in there. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 3 hours, 17 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
MewTo: Re: Israel . . . Not that I am siding with the suicide bombers, but, to answer your question of how many Muslims die daily vs how many Jews, I believe you will find the death toll of civilians to be much greater on the Palestinian side than the Israeli side; Israel is much more effective. As I said, I actually side with Israel, now-a-days. I'm just advising that you might want to think through some of your rhetorical questions a bit more. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/24/2007 at 10:06 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4153 days, 14 hours, 13 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
caladriel: how comes making four 10 line posts to be better than one of 30lines? A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) |
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