Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / God and Satan
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4072 days, 10 hours, 49 minutes and 15 seconds ago. |
Dudes, chill out. Discussions become debates, debates become heated debates, from heated debates come insults. There's no point in arguing who attacked whom now. If I remember right, Gozer once mentioned he lives in South Africa. South Africa is not, by any definition a developed country... It may be "not as poor as the rest of Africa", but that does not constitute "developed". Gozer may be able to use a computer, but so are you, Tianjin. So stop. Darren Grey put it exactly right concerning oppression of women, and I agree with him completely. Last thing: Physical mutilation versus mass social disempowerment. Well... The thing is: Women are not without power in western societies. They've got the Law (Human Rights, anyone?) on their side. They've got the majority of the people on their side. They've got public opinion on their side. The sexists are there, too many of them, and with too much power, but at least they are, in the eyes of society, assholes, idiots, and in extreme cases outlaws. In islamic societies? Total societal disempowerment. Very few will help a woman that is treated like bastard shit, and most certainly it ain't the Law and its enforcers. The media? Ignorance. The people? Well, they are religious, and their religion tell them it's cool. It's only women after all. You are right and wrong at the same time, Gozer. Yes, social disempowerment is worse than pure physical mutilation, simply because the former leads to the latter. If women or any sort of minor... I mean majority is utterly powerless, physical and social oppression of that minor... majority is the direct consequence. You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
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Gozer Unregistered user |
Silfir: personal attacks and oppression of women Thank you, Silfir, for the same reasons that I thanked Darren Grey - your civility is appreciated. I don't entirely agree with your argument that social disempowerment automatically leads to physical mutilation. But, as Darren pointed out, this discussion/debate has largely devolved into semantics - I don't intend to contribute further. |
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Morio Registered user Holy Champion of ADoM Last page view: 3902 days, 8 hours, 23 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
*dingdingding* and the 10 points for the right guess goes to Morio As I said at the beginning of the thread about darwinism, this has caused some sort of flame war. "As for not knowing you - you don't care about this forum enough to even take 5 minutes to register." - Tianjin That was a completely pointless thing to say, it has nothing to do with this thread "I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but I know World War 4 with be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein |
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nOOb-mAsTeR Registered user Master of all things nOOby!!! Last page view: 5768 days, 2 minutes and 23 seconds ago. |
I'm just back, and here's what I have to say regarding this thread: Wow. 4 pages in 4 days that I'm gone........dang Other than that I have nothing to say till I read all of this. "You try to give Fang, the large dog the bone. Fang, the large dog says,"Do you know who I am, mortal?!?!" My smartest dog ever:D |
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Tianjin Registered user for monsters - Death incarnate Last page view: 5603 days, 19 hours, 8 minutes and 43 seconds ago. |
Gozer - I would welcome you quoting me exactly how I have attacked you personally. You still have yet to respond to this request, so I can only assume that either you are incapable of responding or you choose not to respond. Either way, there clearly is no value in attempting to communicate with you further. If you are from the Republic of South Africa, as someone has suggested, it is part of the Commonwealth, and the richest/most developed country in Africa. My point is this: If you help someone who has the ability, education, economic opportunity, and legal structures to help themselves you aren't empowering them. You are making them dependent on you. You are taking away their opportunity to grow stronger by helping themselves. That is disempowering. If you help someone who doesn't have the ability to help themselves - by making available the education and economic opportunity, and legal structures for them to work to help themselves... That is empowering. Western women who truly believe they are disenfranchized/disempowered need to help themselves. If others do it for them- they'll never learn to do it for themselves. The Suffragettes in the US and Britain worked hard, and enjoyed the rewards of their work. Try the TiLiCat! It's experience! Tiger, stuffed with deboned Lion, stuffed with deboned Wildcat, and slow roasted with a mix of herbs. (served raw for Trolls) [Edited 1 time, last edit on 6/6/2007 at 00:42 (GMT -5) by Tianjin] |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4072 days, 10 hours, 49 minutes and 15 seconds ago. |
In my eyes, accusing Gozer of lying concerning his place of living or that he "doesn't care about this forum" is not very nice, and could very well be interpreted as a personal attack. As already said: In my eyes, this is simply a debate that got really heated up. So please, Tianjin, let it calm down in peace. You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 4 hours, 28 minutes and 45 seconds ago. |
Silfir: Thanks for stepping up. You da man! |
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Hendar23 Registered user Last page view: 5661 days, 10 minutes and 40 seconds ago. |
Satan? A force that could appose the will of God? Hmmm and outdated concept to me. Atheists? I don't believe in atheists. They define themselves in terms of not believing in something which is undefinable. Think about it. Oh and while I'm here, I'm sick of hearing the science v. religion argument. Being an atheist is as scientific than being a creationist. You can't prove god doesn't exist (no-one even agrees about what 'god' is exactly to start with) So stating god does not exist is an act of faith too. The entire argument is pointless and boring me. Until one of you think of a way of allowing me to view the universe objectively, I'm going to go sleep or something. I leave you with a quote from the Principia Discordia: "Everything must have a natural cause." "Everything must have a supernatural cause." Let these two asses be set to grind corn. P.S. I know if I think the argument is pointless, I should stay out of it but, hell, I'm human. Part of me likes arguing. I hate seeing people butting heads like mountain sheep too. "Men are born for games. Nothing else. Every child knows that play is nobler than work" - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4072 days, 10 hours, 49 minutes and 15 seconds ago. |
As with all religious views, I'm fine with atheism. Of course you can't prove or disprove God. You can, however, happily believe he exists or that he doesn't exist. As long as you don't treat your belief as an irrefutable fact that you have to stuff down other people's throats, either is fine. You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 4 hours, 28 minutes and 45 seconds ago. |
I've never quite been taken with the idea of Satan being able to oppose the will of God any more than we can. I just don't believe Satan is some uber-powerful counterforce to God leading us astray. I think we are more than capable of traipsing astray on our own. |
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4153 days, 15 hours, 23 minutes and 56 seconds ago. |
"A force that could appose the will of God?" sounds very like human. or are you denieng concept of free will? A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) |
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Hendar23 Registered user Last page view: 5661 days, 10 minutes and 40 seconds ago. |
Well...hmmm...Before we can really pick that apart we have to define what 'God' is exactly, and what 'Free will' means. Free Will for example...shall we say it means 'I' make my decisions outside of the influence of external forces....in this case 'God'. And by 'God' we mean a absolutely powerful entity that exits outside 'the universe', created 'the universe' and can alter 'the universe' in any way at any time. Ok.....then lets start. How do 'I' make my decisions? Lets take two possible options: 1. Pure 'scientific'. My choices are based on how my brain and nervous system responds to external stimulus. This depends on my genetic make-up, previous experiences and my brain chemistry composition at the time (i.ei mood). None of which 'I' control. I mean ok you can say I choose to act calm or emotionally in a give situation, but this again is based in previous experiences, advice, genetic tendencies etc. If there is a 'God', and he created the universe and set the ball rolling, he decided my every action a few billion years ago. (or a few thousand years ago creationists!) And if there is/was no controling entity, then it's random. No free will. 2. Pure 'religious' - My brain plays a part, but the important/moral decisions are decided by my 'soul' the real me. And 'God' leaves my soul do to it's own thing, free of the physical world. Hmmmm, but how does the soul make it's choices? If it's not based on it experiences and it's inherent nature, the stuff 'I' can't control, then it's decisions are totally random, so again not mine. No free will. But all this depends on definitions of rather nebulous things. Phrases and words like 'God', 'Free Will', 'I' and such that people are happy to throw around but when pushed either can't define exactly, or have a different definition than the next person. All this would change my arguments entirely. This is why I call myself a Discordian. And I just re-read Soirana's post. I'm saying there doesn't seeme to be such a thing as Free Will to me, but you actually said the -concept- of free will. Well, of course the concept exists. lol. The concept of unicorns exists too. "Men are born for games. Nothing else. Every child knows that play is nobler than work" - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian |
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4153 days, 15 hours, 23 minutes and 56 seconds ago. |
well, since you wrote this not on your free will and you claim it being random stuff, i simply won't react to it. A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) |
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Morio Registered user Holy Champion of ADoM Last page view: 3902 days, 8 hours, 23 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
"My choices are based on how my brain and nervous system responds to external stimulus. This depends on my genetic make-up, previous experiences and my brain chemistry composition at the time (i.ei mood). None of which 'I' control." This might be true for certain animals, who often react purely on instinct. Humans can act very irrationally. When someone says 'hi', if I reacted purely on instinct, I would probably say 'hi' too, but as a human I could also choose to stick a fork in his eye (if I had a fork on me). "I don't know what World War 3 will be fought with, but I know World War 4 with be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein |
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Hendar23 Registered user Last page view: 5661 days, 10 minutes and 40 seconds ago. |
True. But how you make that decision, whether conscious or instinctively, is still a result of the physical condition of your brain. The exact method doesn't matter, it makes no difference if it's genetic based instinct or the result of a lifetime of intellectual study. What I was trying to say is that if the laws of physics (which the structure of your brain obeys) are entirely deterministic then there is no free will. If, say to the weirdness of quantum physics, the heisenberg uncertainty principle, etc, the physical world isn't entirely deterministic then the only other option I can see is randomness...neurons firing at random on the macro level due to the random results of quantum level interactions etc. The only other option I can think of is the 'soul' option. You can say: OK I don't think the physical world is the be-all-and-end-all of the story. I have a mysterious soul which exists somewhere alongside the physical world and influences my decisions somehow. Free Will is preserved! Yay! But analyse that a bit further: By what mechanism or system does the soul make ITS choices? Is it deterministic i.e. based on its initial conditions? The cannot determine it's own initial conditions, can it? Or if it can, then how it decides to do that is based on its current condition in some kind of feedback loop? How else can it make choices? Roll dice? I don't see any kind of room for a pure free will. But, hey, it doesn't worry me. It's all academic anyway, we still have to go through the motions and make our tough choices everyday. When I decide I want to have kids, I don't care if it's just genetic programming or truly My Choice(tm) I still have to work towards it, and I still gain as much satisfaction from seeing it done. Oh and guys I don't like arguing on forums, really I'm looking for a debate. I want to be proved wrong and I want you to enrich my thinking with new ideas. I'm looking for the truth, as cliché as that sounds. "Men are born for games. Nothing else. Every child knows that play is nobler than work" - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4072 days, 10 hours, 49 minutes and 15 seconds ago. |
Well, Hendar... I guess we're seeing it the same way. If free will is an illusion, at least we're all suffering from the same one, and in the end, it doesn't matter if we decide or just think we decide. You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4153 days, 15 hours, 23 minutes and 56 seconds ago. |
laws of physic in modern era are not entirely determenistic. and although i'm involved in that science area for smrhing like eleven years i haven't any firnm ideas what is physical substract of consciosness. maybe you can enlight me? A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) |
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Hendar23 Registered user Last page view: 5661 days, 10 minutes and 40 seconds ago. |
That is an interesting topic, isn't it? 'fraid I can't help you there :) I've also read many books and articles that claim to understand thought and how the brain works. Many have great theories around things like neural networks and such that explain the mechanics of thought, but few have given any clue as to how consciousness works. If I picture a unicorn vividly in my mind, no doubt a neurologist could pick out exactly which neurons are firing which constitute me picturing the creature, but that actual image is very real, I can 'see' the colours and textures. You can't open up my head and find the colour blue anywhere. Maybe I'm not explain myself well. If your referring to my previous argument though, I'm not saying I think the laws of physics are deterministic, if you read again I leave room for both possibilities. See my 'soul' option. Heh, of course if your proposing that there is a soul, and whatever it is and whatever it's made of it really is the 'real you' (whatever that means) Then regardless of the mechanism of decision making, there is truly free will. Hell, it's all semantics in the end it seems. Pick your definition. Pick the definition of definition! Your defining words using words, that are defined by words! Arrgh trapped in linguistic metaphors! Madness! <cough> sorry. heh. "Men are born for games. Nothing else. Every child knows that play is nobler than work" - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian |
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Hendar23 Registered user Last page view: 5661 days, 10 minutes and 40 seconds ago. |
Thinking further on the subject of explaining consciousness as a product of the physical world, sometimes I wonder if it's not the other way around, and our minds created the physical world to explain their experience. hmmm..maybe....lol I'm rambling. "Men are born for games. Nothing else. Every child knows that play is nobler than work" - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian |
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