Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / God and Satan
| Online users ( Unknown) |
| Application object not working properly at the moment, no clue who is online... * Numbers in parentheses are the number of minutes since the user last loaded a page. Logged-in users time out after 40 minutes (unless they manually log out), lurkers and anonymous posters after 20. |
This thread is 4 pages long.
| Go to page 1 2 3 4 |
|
Mewto Registered user Last page view: 3603 days, 16 hours, 33 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
Gozer: "And it never occurred to you that maybe the people who were in charge of Ogrish *deliberately* chose to show a high proportion of videos featuring Arabic violence?" Actually, no. For the Horde! |
||
|
Mewto Registered user Last page view: 3603 days, 16 hours, 33 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
Darren: "Just because you've lived for 17 years without killing anyone doesn't make you racist, by the way." I didn't quite get this. What I was trying to say was that if I was racist, or had any feelings of superiority when comparing myself to lebanese, norwegian or spanish people, someone would have probably noticed and kicked my ass. "You may have bad experiences with specific Muslims, but you should be targetting your hatred towards those individuals that attacked or offended you, not to everyone that shares one trait with them." I really don't hate anyone. Actually, I don't think I've hated anyone yet (disliked some people a lot, but not hated). I've been re-reading some of my posts, and they certainly seem to make me look like some kind of idiot racist. I don't hate arabic people, I just think that they're religion has something to do with all the terrorist attacks and their executions. I don't know why, but women are treated like scum there, or so I've been told. Some of my friends were acting really weird when a girl was the focus of attention in class, or was their supervisor in a project. If in a country women do not have the same rights as men, the people in that country have serious issues, IMO. If they're treating their own people like that, how will they treat an "infidel" that crosses their borders? For the Horde! |
||
|
Mewto Registered user Last page view: 3603 days, 16 hours, 33 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
Caladriel: "Dude, anybody calling you a racist has some of their own issues that they should examine." I don't know about that, I wasn't expressing myself the way I wanted in my previous posts, so they got the impression I was racist. I feel sorry for the Iraqi civilians. It doesn't matter what religion they are, they shouldn't be on the receveing end of American troops (before) and bombs from freedom fighters. As for the Apocalypse part, forget that. It is written that Israel will face all the world's armies, and I was thinking about what countries would be happiest to attack? Those closest to Israel, I think. "Your statement does seem similar to statements by Muslim extremists and Terrorists who have somehow interpreted the Koran as saying Christians and Jews should be killed." Could be, but the difference is that I don't want to see people die. This part is for Darren also. I am against capital punishment. I think it's sad what some states are doing in USA, it isn't our right to decide who lives and who dies. Even if I didn't believe in God, I would feel the same way, it's unethical. I'm against sentencing people to a life-time in prison, too. If you're arrested at 20 and send to prison for the rest of your life, a death sentence doesn't sound too bad, does it? I also think that there shouldn't be sentences longer than 20-25 years... you're already taking half his life away, why more? I remember watching a movie once, and an old man was released from prison. He was sentenced about 40-50 years before, so when he got on the street he was lost. He wasn't used to cars, cell phones, computers and Internet. In the end, he hung himself... For the Horde! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/26/2007 at 08:41 (GMT -5) by Mewto] |
||
|
Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4072 days, 14 hours, 53 minutes and 37 seconds ago. |
I agree, the death penalty in general is something I can't quite accept for myself. "Eye for an eye" in the bible seems to be the most famous argument of christians advocating the death penalty... I could be wrong, but wasn't there something called the ten commandings or something? And wasn't one of these about how you should not kill people? I somehow also got the feeling that these ten commanditions or something were considered somewhat important compared even to other parts of the old testament... Yet, there is a huge gap between death penalty in the USA and death penalty under Islamic law. In the USA, you get executed if you murder people, and probably if you cause nuclear explosions or some other really bad stuff. While I don't agree with that, I can at least grasp how you could want to kill a murderer... But I cannot for the life of me understand the execution of someone who changes his religion. It is highly arrogant, deeply intolerant, and plain cruel. You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
||
|
Mewto Registered user Last page view: 3603 days, 16 hours, 33 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
The "eye for an eye" quote was valid only during the Old Testament. Of course, Jews didn't and don't believe that Jesus was God's son, so I think they still follow the old rule. And yes, "Thou shalt not kill" is the fifth commandment. For the Horde! |
||
|
Gozer Unregistered user |
Silfir: Re Apostasy Again, let me be clear: I am not defending Muslims, Islam, or violence. My posts have been directed largely at Mewto with the intent of challenging some of his perspectives which, for the most part, I consider narrow-minded. Can one condemn Islamic teachings for justifying violence under specified conditions? Yes, of course. But one could apply the *exact* same judgement to virtually any other society. History is littered with examples of cultures that encouraged violence in the name of God, law, or some other convenient authority. The same is true of present global circumstances. Whether it is Islamic radicals conducting terrorist attacks, the Israeli military bombing Palestinian communities, or American forces invading sovereign territories with pre-fabricated evidence, as a race we clearly tend towards clustering in groups and directing violence towards others. However, to make sweeping generalisations about all individuals who happen so share a single demographic trait is narrow-minded. And to relentlessly criticise those same individuals without accepting or acknowledging that other groups are guilty of the same criticism is biggoted and offensive. |
||
|
Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4243 days, 14 hours, 11 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Yeah, Jesus' teachings are very different from "eye for an eye". But strangely it's only ever Christians I've heard quote that part of the bible. But like I said, people will use religion in whatever way they see fit. There is a lot of oppression of women in some Muslim countries and communities, usually by extremists, but we see the same things in other Asian and African countries. I personally put it down to developing culture, which in time will become more in line with Western beliefs (as is seen by many countries modernising their laws and giving women more rights). And we in Europe and America and other more developed countries cannot be accused of being immune to unequal rights within our own borders. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
||
|
Gozer Unregistered user |
Darren Grey: Re oppression of women I'm not entirely sure that I agree with you with respect to Western cultures oppressing women less than Asian and African ones. I think, rather, that it is a case of Western cultures oppressing women *differently* compared to Asian and African ones. |
||
|
Mewto Registered user Last page view: 3603 days, 16 hours, 33 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
How would Western cultures oppress women differently? Finland's president is a woman, Tarja Halonen. Women have actually more power than men, sometimes, in Western cultures. They could always sue men for sexual discrimination, if they don't get a certain job. Just an example, though. For the Horde! |
||
|
Gozer Unregistered user |
Mewto: Re Western oppression of women While some women may occupy high-profile positions in Western society, most women are oppressed - albeit more subtly (e.g. economically, socially) than women in some non-Western cultures. For example, according to the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe: 1. Women, on average, still earn less than men. In 2003, women in many Western nations (including Canada, Finland, Netherlands, Spain, and the US) earned between 15%-30% less than men. 2. Women are greatly under-represented in parliament in Western nations. In 2006, less than 40% of national parliament members were women in countries as diverse as Austria, Belgium, Canada, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Spain, Switzerland, the US, and the UK. In many of these nations, the representation of women in national parliament was less than 20%. 3. Women are greatly under-represented in the central banks of nations which include Austria, Belgium, Canada, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Netherlands, Poland, Spain, Switzerland, the US, and the UK. In 2006, less than 40% of central bank members were women in all of these countries - and in the case of seven of these countries, the percentage of female members was 0%. 4. Between 2000 and 2004, women were greatly under-represented amongst the chief editors of national newspapers in Finland, Ireland, Netherlands, Spain, and the UK. In all of these countries, women made up 20% or less of the national newspaper chief editors. 5. Between 2000 and 2004, women were greatly under-represented amongst the heads of universities in Finland, France, Ireland, Netherlands, Spain, and Switzerland. In all of these countries, women made up 20% or less of the university heads. If I type any more, I think Caladriel is going to have a heart-attack ;) Hopefully I have made my point: in five major spheres of public life and decision making, men hold far more power than women in many Western nations. As far as I am concerned, this lack of gender equality is an insidious form of oppression - not as blatant as some other forms perhaps, but arguably just as destructive and inexcusable. |
||
|
Mewto Registered user Last page view: 3603 days, 16 hours, 33 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
I dunno, most teachers in Romania are usually women, both in gymnasium and secondary school. Most nurses and doctors are women, too. But then Romania isn't exactly a part of Western countries. I'm going to an IT high school in a Nordic country, about 50% of the teachers are female. Anyway, in all the years there are about 5 girls, no more. I asked a colleague why are there so few girls, and he answered "because girls are not interested in computers very much". Maybe it's the same thing with politics? For the Horde! |
||
|
Gozer Unregistered user |
Mewto: Re oppression of women "I asked a colleague why are there so few girls, and he answered "because girls are not interested in computers very much". Maybe it's the same thing with politics?" Please, *please* don't tell me that you seriously believe that Mewto. |
||
|
Mewto Registered user Last page view: 3603 days, 16 hours, 33 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
I did put a question mark at the end, didn't I? For the Horde! |
||
|
Gozer Unregistered user |
Mewto: re women and politics If you were a woman, wouldn't you want to be represented fairly when decisions were made concerning the country that you lived in? Better yet, wouldn't you want to be directly involved in the decision-making process? How could any reasonably sane, intelligent woman *not* have an interest in politics? The typical excuse that is provided for areas where women are badly under-represented is that women have no interest in those areas. Anyone with even a semblance of intelligence ought to appreciate just how ridiculous that sounds. |
||
|
Tianjin Registered user for monsters - Death incarnate Last page view: 5603 days, 23 hours, 13 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
Gozer - "just as destructive and inexcusable" I can't believe you'd seriously equate cultures that discriminate in wages/representation with cultures that condone honor killings (various middle-east nations) and cultures that condone genital mutilation (the removal of the clitoris and labia(parts of sub-Saharan Africa)). Sure, it's discrimination, but one is DEATH or permanent mutilation, and the other is 15%-30% less pay. Lose your Western-centered thinking. I live in Asia. I've been to Malaysia, Laos, Thailand, Cambodia, and Indonesia. In the "westernized" big cities, there is inequality - as there is all over the world, but outside the big cities, women aren't second-class citizens, they are nearly property. Even here in China, where "women hold up half the sky"(Mao) the suicide rate for women is nearly double that for men. In the Western world, though women attempt it, it is men who suicide more often. You don't know what it is to be powerless and trapped in a life you can't escape. Compare THAT to having 15%-30% less money. ______________________________________________ If you'd read the news, you'd have seen articles about the beatings by police and arrests of women in Iran for leaving too much of their hair exposed. I bet that doesn't happen to women in your city. Try the TiLiCat! It's experience! Tiger, stuffed with deboned Lion, stuffed with deboned Wildcat, and slow roasted with a mix of herbs. (served raw for Trolls) [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/28/2007 at 06:59 (GMT -5) by Tianjin] |
||
|
Mewto Registered user Last page view: 3603 days, 16 hours, 33 minutes and 54 seconds ago. |
Gozer: "Anyone with even a semblance of intelligence ought to appreciate just how ridiculous that sounds." That's, urm, very nice of you. Why are there so few female baseball/football/basketball players (if any)? Why are there only 2-3 Formula 1 female drivers? Why are there so few women in the army? Because they're not so interested, maybe? If a woman shows exceptional reflexes and she drives well, I really don't think anyone will stop her from becoming a pro driver. If most, or even 20% of a country's women wanted to play an active role in politics, they would've started a female party, right? I asked some people and none of them know of any party composed of women, or mostly women. And Tianjin is right... For the Horde! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/27/2007 at 07:36 (GMT -5) by Mewto] |
||
|
Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4072 days, 14 hours, 53 minutes and 37 seconds ago. |
The women in higher positions may be lower in number, but that is directly related to the fact that they have to overcome higher resistance in western societies than men do. If a man wants to achieve a high position, he has to perform well. If a woman wants that same position, she has to perform well AND to overcome the predujices of men thinking women should stay at home, watch their kids and not become bankiers, newspaper chief editors and whatnot AND the loathing of the faithful housewives who think just the same - some are really believing in these ancient traditions, some are probably simply envious. That's at least how it is in Germany. All in all, women face some resistance in western societies still, leading to lower pay, lower representation in higher positions and so on. That is not a good thing, and we know it. How many women are chief editors, bankiers or members of parliament in, say, Saudi Arabia? None, or next to none, because the resistance they would have to overcome is *immensely* higher... Mainly because they do not have the same rights as men do. So no, it is not "just as destructive and inexcusable", Gozer. Definitely not, not even arguably. You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
||
|
Gozer Unregistered user |
Tianjin: Re oppression of women "I can't believe you'd seriously equate cultures that discriminate in wages/representation with cultures that condone honor killings (various middle-east nations) and cultures that condone genital mutilation (the removal of the clitoris and labia(parts of sub-Saharan Africa))." Whether one form of oppression is worse than the other is a matter of personal opinion - I was simply making the point that women in Western societies are significantly oppressed in meaningful ways. And, yes, I personally believe that social disempowerment is comparable to physical mutilation - but that's my opinion and I have no intention of forcing it on anyone else. "You don't know what it is to be powerless and trapped in a life you can't escape." Seeing how you know so much about me, I would greatly appreciate it if you would justify that judgement. "If you'd read the news, you'd have seen articles about the beatings and arrests of women in Iran for leaving too much of their hair exposed. I bet that doesn't happen to women in your city." In my country a woman is raped every few minutes for being female. |
||
|
Gozer Unregistered user |
Mewto: re oppression of women "Why are there so few female baseball/football/basketball players (if any)? Why are there only 2-3 Formula 1 female drivers? Why are there so few women in the army? Because they're not so interested, maybe?" Or because, as Silfir articulated so well, women have to overcome many more social barriers than men do when trying to excel in traditionally male-dominated disciplines (e.g. sport, business, politics). Seriously, this is not meant to be a personal attack, but it is extremely naive to believe that the only reason why a particular demographic is not well-represented is due to mass, collective dis-interest. "If a woman shows exceptional reflexes and she drives well, I really don't think anyone will stop her from becoming a pro driver." I totally disagree. There are many insecure men who will try to stop her to ensure that the social, politicial, and economic dominance that they have enjoyed for so long remains the privelege of men. For example, for 212 years women were barred from joining the Marylebone Cricket Club (MCC) despite repeated interest from women who wanted to join and who were just as capable of being members as their male counterparts. "If most, or even 20% of a country's women wanted to play an active role in politics, they would've started a female party, right?" Starting a political party is easier said than done. Legislative and bureacratic processes need to be followed. Financial capital needs to be raised. Relationships and alliances need to be built. It's a huge challenge made all the more difficult when the entrenched, male-dominated hierarchy restricts access to key resources for fear of compromising their position of power. I strongly encourage you to read more about feminist history, Mewto, to better understand the long history of subtle (and not-so-subtle) female oppression in Western cultures which continues to this day. |
||
|
Gozer Unregistered user |
Silfir: re oppression of women "So no, it is not "just as destructive and inexcusable", Gozer. Definitely not, not even arguably." Obviously I would disagree (see previous post responding to Tianjin). I think mass social disempowerment is just as oppressive as physical mutilation or even death - albeit less obvious. |
||
|
Tianjin Registered user for monsters - Death incarnate Last page view: 5603 days, 23 hours, 13 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
Gozer - If I gave you the choice between: 1 - Having the choice to work for your own personal empowerment, struggling against the system and prejudice, while having access to education and a justice system that recognizes the legal rights of women. 2 - Having all possibility of physical sexual pleasure sliced away from your body around the age of 6. 3 - Being stoned/burned alive for loving/marrying the wrong person. You'd tell me, "I don't care, it doesn't matter to me. Mutilation and death are the same as being disempowered, and it's too hard to struggle against the system." __________________________________________ As for not knowing you - you don't care about this forum enough to even take 5 minutes to register. But: your English is articulate and you are educated. You probably come from a developed country, and you've been to or will attend university. It is quite likely from your comments that you are British/commonwealth or live in western Europe. That means you are richer and more empowered than most of the world. Nearly 40% of the world lives on wages of 2 dollars per day. It's hard to buy education, justice, a computer, or anything but daily food on that. ___________________________________ As for the rape of women every few minutes - there is no country where that DOESN'T happen. The number of minutes vary, but rape happens to women, men, and children everywhere. Try the TiLiCat! It's experience! Tiger, stuffed with deboned Lion, stuffed with deboned Wildcat, and slow roasted with a mix of herbs. (served raw for Trolls) [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/28/2007 at 00:29 (GMT -5) by Tianjin] |
||
|
Gozer Unregistered user |
Tianjin: Re oppression of women "If I gave you the choice between" Firstly, that is a moot question since, quite obviously, women *don't* get a choice. Secondly, while social disempowerment may seem like the obviously preferable choice out of the three, it carries a massive, hidden, life-long price that affects every aspect of one's life. Thirdly, since when did this thread become comparing whose disempowerment is greater anyway? My original response to Darren Grey was simply to point out that women in Western cultures are significantly oppressed and that it is unfair to belittle that oppression by comparing it to something much more visceral like genital mutilation. I stand by my original statement: social disempowerment is just as oppressive as physical mutilation or death. I have given my reasons why I believe this and I have taken the time to provide some objective evidence in an attempt to justify these reasons. If you still choose to disagree with me then fine, but I feel any further debate on this matter would be pretty futile. |
||
|
Gozer Unregistered user |
Tianjin: re rape "As for the rape of women every few minutes - there is no country where that DOESN'T happen." Well, there is no country in the world where women aren't beaten or arrested. See? Two can play that game :) |
||
|
Gozer Unregistered user |
Tianjin: re personal attacks "As for not knowing you - you don't care about this forum enough to even take 5 minutes to register." Wow! Just . . . wow! I have my reasons for not registering and it has *nothing* to do with not caring about this forum. Do you really think I wouldn't care if I took the time to respond on multiple forum threads - particularly those where new players (and not-so-new players) require help? "You probably come from a developed country" I don't. "It is quite likely from your comments that you are British/commonwealth or live in western Europe." I'm not and I don't. This is your second post in which you have attacked me personally Tianjin and I am getting pretty tired of it. While some of my responses to Mewto may have been pretty harsh, I made a point of criticising his ideas and/or his thinking - not *him personally*. I would like an apology or, at the very least, an explanation. |
||
|
Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4243 days, 14 hours, 11 minutes and 27 seconds ago. |
Gozer: I think the general point is that women in other countries suffer both social disempowerment on a much heavier scale than we do in the west, whilst also living in fear of what most would consider far worse fates. I agree though that we shouldn't ignore or belittle the struggles of women in developed coutries (where the unseen sexism can be harder to battle against). Too often equality movements have trouble making progress because people point to other worse countries and say things aren't so bad. And yeah, man, this thread is getting out of hand, and this topic is just a dead-end. There's no point arguing over what is mostly semantics and phrasing. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
||
|
Gozer Unregistered user |
Darren: re oppression of women Firstly, thank you, Darren, for restoring my faith in the possiblity of calm, reasonable discussion at this forum. Secondly, regarding your post: I agree with everything that you wrote. |
||
|
Gozer Unregistered user |
Tianjin: re personal attacks I have no problem with you criticising my logic. I do have a problem with statements like: "you don't care about this forum enough to even take 5 minutes to register" I also have a problem with you making gross, incorrect assumptions with whom I am and what my background is when commenting on my posts. |
||
|
Tianjin Registered user for monsters - Death incarnate Last page view: 5603 days, 23 hours, 13 minutes and 5 seconds ago. |
Gozer - I would welcome you quoting me exactly how I have attacked you personally. You are a liar. THAT is a personal attack. I find your logic indefensible. That is NOT a personal attack. You deny that you come from a developed country - well that definition is flexible - so maybe by your own/your government's definition you don't. Do you deny you've ever attended/will attend university? Will you deny that you use a computer - a symbol of wealth, status, and privilege that only around 1/3 of the world can afford to own or even use regularly? Try the TiLiCat! It's experience! Tiger, stuffed with deboned Lion, stuffed with deboned Wildcat, and slow roasted with a mix of herbs. (served raw for Trolls) |
||
|
Gozer Unregistered user |
Tianjin - I have asked you to respond to a number of statements that you made about me personally and which I have quoted in more than post. You still have yet to respond to any of these requests so I can only assume that either you are incapable of responding or you choose not to respond. Either way, there clearly is no value in attempting to communicate with you further. |
||
|
Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4072 days, 14 hours, 53 minutes and 37 seconds ago. |
Dudes, chill out. Discussions become debates, debates become heated debates, from heated debates come insults. There's no point in arguing who attacked whom now. If I remember right, Gozer once mentioned he lives in South Africa. South Africa is not, by any definition a developed country... It may be "not as poor as the rest of Africa", but that does not constitute "developed". Gozer may be able to use a computer, but so are you, Tianjin. So stop. Darren Grey put it exactly right concerning oppression of women, and I agree with him completely. Last thing: Physical mutilation versus mass social disempowerment. Well... The thing is: Women are not without power in western societies. They've got the Law (Human Rights, anyone?) on their side. They've got the majority of the people on their side. They've got public opinion on their side. The sexists are there, too many of them, and with too much power, but at least they are, in the eyes of society, assholes, idiots, and in extreme cases outlaws. In islamic societies? Total societal disempowerment. Very few will help a woman that is treated like bastard shit, and most certainly it ain't the Law and its enforcers. The media? Ignorance. The people? Well, they are religious, and their religion tell them it's cool. It's only women after all. You are right and wrong at the same time, Gozer. Yes, social disempowerment is worse than pure physical mutilation, simply because the former leads to the latter. If women or any sort of minor... I mean majority is utterly powerless, physical and social oppression of that minor... majority is the direct consequence. You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! |
| Go to page 1 2 3 4 |