Ancient Domains Of Mystery, forum overview / General / God and Satan
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4153 days, 17 hours, 48 minutes and 17 seconds ago. |
caladriel: how comes making four 10 line posts to be better than one of 30lines? A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 6 hours, 53 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
Soirana: Re: Israel Personally, considering the pain Israel went through getting out of Gaza, I find the attacks from there to be unconscionable. Had MewTo said, a year ago, that Israel was just defending its territory, I might have disagreed, but now, I am very much on Israel's side. The creation of Israel (and Syria and Jordan) is very complicated, but they did not take over the West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights and Sinai until they were attacked by the countries that owned them. Some Israeli's might have been motivated by "historical claims" but, on the whole, they were motivated because they were attacked, so I would not call it conquest. Since then, they have given land back to Egypt and Lebanon (and, technically, they have given land to the Palistinians by pulling out of Gaza) |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 6 hours, 53 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
Soirana: Re: 20 lines. :-D Each post is a different subject and addressed to a different person. (labeled at the top) People can skip the subjects they don't care about. Am I splitting hairs? [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/24/2007 at 10:19 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Mewto Registered user Last page view: 3603 days, 14 hours, 53 minutes and 53 seconds ago. |
"Paradise is the eternal garden of physical pleasures and spiritual delights. Suffering will be absent and bodily desires will be satisfied. All wishes will be met. Palaces, servants, riches, streams of wine, milk and honey, pleasant fragrances, soothing voices, pure partners for intimacy; a person will never get bored or have enough!" Taken from this site: I remember reading a book where the definition above was even more detailed: each men would get a 99 houses which had 99 rooms. In every room there were 99 beds and in every bed a virgin. They would also have the strength and "vigor" of 99 men. So what do you think, would you kill people to get into a carnal paradise? Sure sounds tempting enough... Has anyone here read the Left Behind series, by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins? For the Horde! |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4243 days, 12 hours, 31 minutes and 26 seconds ago. |
Caladriel: Some of the comments being made here are, in my opinion, borderline racist and outright prejudiced. If my wording seems strongly negative it's because I find the statements extremely offensive. With regards to the whole Israel thing, well, it's complex, and there's no real right side. However since Israel's attacks on Lebanon and their specific targetting of civilians I've been far less conpassionate to them. You said "the death toll of civilians to be much greater on the Palestinian side than the Israeli side; Israel is much more effective." Personally I think it's because Israel is more ruthless. Palestinian militants and Hezbollah concentrate their attacks on military targets, which are obviously harder to hit. Israel performs air raids on homes and cities, civilian airports, roadways that refugees are trying to use, etc. Israel also has far more advanced weapons and technology, giving them a distinct advantage. Israel of course have their reasons for fighting back against people that attack them, but I personally think they're far far too heavy-handed and inconsiderate of civilian casualties. I also think their tactics aren't helping anything towards bringing peace - they're just making more enemies for themselves and getting the whole area entrenched in continuous warfare. But then there's no easy solution to the irrational hatred between many Jews and Muslims in the Middle-East. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 6 hours, 53 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
MewTo: Re: Paradise. As I thought. Not in the Koran . . . Not that I believe all that is in the Koran. I just feel that Islam has as many variations as Christianity, as well as its share of crack pots. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 6 hours, 53 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
Morio: Re: "Before" It is not that God and the Universe came into being at the same time . . . Again, you are using Time as a measurement for something that is believed to be outside the bounds of time. Hmmm, Maybe the second post in Perceptions of Time/Space explains it better. "Begin", "End" [and "Before", from a 3D perception of time] are not applicable [to a being outside 3-dimensional time] |
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Mewto Registered user Last page view: 3603 days, 14 hours, 53 minutes and 53 seconds ago. |
Well that site is an official one, so the interpretations are probably wide spread in Muslim countries. Israel and the surrounding countries will probably never stop hating each other, let alone bomb each other. I sure am glad to be living far away from the Middle East. And Darren, you know what they say... If ignorance is bliss, then I'm probably one of the happiest people on Earth. For the Horde! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/24/2007 at 11:42 (GMT -5) by Mewto] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 6 hours, 53 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
Darren Re: Debating: I agree, but please just say that you find the comments offensive or racist. Try to show how it is racist. Calling somebody ignorant or daft doesn't further anything aside from making you feel better by venting. Such personal comments risk a flame war or, worse, discouraging somebody from reading and posting. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/24/2007 at 11:07 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 6 hours, 53 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
Darren Re: Palestinian Militants only targetting military . . . I have to disagree. Most suicide bombers, if they make it past the checkpoints, tend to go off in Markets or buses full of civilians. The rocket attcks from Gaza are targetting civilian Israeli towns. Israeli bombs tend to target Militants. I agree that they are ruthless, since the militants are usually surrounded by civilians, but they are at least aiming for "military" targets. |
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Soirana Registered user Chaos Freak Last page view: 4153 days, 17 hours, 48 minutes and 17 seconds ago. |
best source for coran description of heaven i found: http://members.cox.net/arshad/paradise.html surprised me a bit. A root is a flower that disdains fame. Kahlil Gibran(1883-1931) |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 6 hours, 53 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
Soirana: Suprised me a bit, too. Mohammad does seem to focus on the "companions" a lot. (albeit, that term is certainly open to interpretation) Personally, I have never been taken with trying to define "Heaven" or "Hell" to concretely. Harps/Honey, Fire/Forks. I would hope salvation is better, and I fear lack of salvation is worse. On a high level, I tend to define "Heaven" (Salvation, whatever) as being with God, and "Hell" (lack of salvation, whatever) as being separated from God. I have gone through some physically painful experiences in my time, but I would take them over the emotional trauma of isolation, any day; the idea of having God leave me is more terrifying than the idea of being set on fire. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/24/2007 at 12:38 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4243 days, 12 hours, 31 minutes and 26 seconds ago. |
Caladriel: I never meant my comments as venting - just giving my honest opinion. I'll quite happily admit I'm daft and ignorant about a lot of stuff myself. I'll keep my comments in check though - I'm certainly not interested in starting any sort of flame war, and I'm quite sure no one else here does either. Regarding militants, I'm not saying that they only attack military targets, but that in comparison with Israel they make more attacks on military posts than civilians. This is most obvious in the Lebanon conflict where Hezbollah attacks killed mostly soldiers, whilst Israel caused widespread destruction to the country and the vast majority of victims were civilians (and not just in fatalities). Of course this is partly because militants are mobile and hard to target, and often hide out in civilian areas, but I really don't see that as an excuse for mass slaughter. And I don't see how bombing civilian roads, a commercial airport, a UN base or entire towns can be classed as "aiming for military targets" - all of these came under direct attack during the conflict. Of course Gaza is a somewhat different story, since there are numerous resistance groups and some of them have more extreme agendas which involve direct civilian attacks. Inexcusable, but thay're all part of a growing conflict that Israel has played a huge part in creating, and is doing very little to help resolve beyond trying to flatten people into submission, with no regard whatsoever for the humanitarian costs. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 6 hours, 53 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
Darren: I used to be on the fence with Hezbollah. They did tend to go after military rather than civilian targets, but now they are firing rockets at Israeli towns. What are they even fighting for now? Israel pulled out of Golan (which they only took after they were attacked) Hezbollah seems to be sending the message: "If you stop occupying our territory, since we can then closer to you, we will hurt you more." |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4243 days, 12 hours, 31 minutes and 26 seconds ago. |
Hezbollah have always attacked both civilian and military targets, and are known as a terrorist group supported by Syria to try and bring instability to Israel and Lebanon. I have no sympathy for them, I'm just putting Israel's actions in comparison with them. As for why they're stepping up attacks, probably because they've garnered far more support since the conflict. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Tianjin Registered user for monsters - Death incarnate Last page view: 5603 days, 21 hours, 33 minutes and 4 seconds ago. |
The question I'd like to ask is: Who owns the land? If you read the Pentateuch (or Old Testament) the Jews drove out/killed the first inhabitants of the land. (at the order of God) Then the Romans had enough of the Jews rebelling and drove them out. (the diaspora) Other people came in and settled the largely empty land - Greeks, Romans, Arabs, traders. Pogroms drove the Jews out of Russia, and then persecution in other European countries drove them out, or killed them. They returned to the land they had left centuries earlier. So, who owns the land? The descendants of the first groups? The Jews? The Romans? The people who moved into the land most recently? Anyone who can hold it by superior force? Try the TiLiCat! It's experience! Tiger, stuffed with deboned Lion, stuffed with deboned Wildcat, and slow roasted with a mix of herbs. (served raw for Trolls) [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/25/2007 at 00:46 (GMT -5) by Tianjin] |
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Gozer Unregistered user |
Caladriel: Re debating You are a total control freak. Fortunately, so am I, so I support your protocols whole-heartedly :p |
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Gozer Unregistered user |
Caladriel, Darren Grey, and Mewto: Re personal attacks For the record, I agree 100% with Darren with respect to the comments that Mewto has been posting. While I have no doubt that Mewto isn't trolling, he has displayed mind-boggling ignorance that does, indeed, border on racism by making offensive generalisations (Darren has already indicated that he found them offensive and I concur). I would happily attempt to enlighten Mewto, as you suggest, but he has already demonstrated zero interest in challenging his own narrow-minded beliefs. Mewto's comment about ignorance being bliss, whilst no doubt intended to be tongue-in-cheek, is nonetheless very revealing and perfectly somes up his contribution to this "debate". |
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Gozer Unregistered user |
Tianjin: Re who owns the land While we can debate whether it is even possible to determine the objective truth in this matter, I think we can all agree that the various parties who have a vested interest in it would *never* accept the answer should it repudiate their claims. I think violence in that part of the world will continue indefinitely until one party wipes out everyone else. |
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Gozer Unregistered user |
Everyone: re thread hijacking My understanding is that the original intent of this thread was to discuss the nature of God and Satan. The whole Israel-Palestine conflict has derailed that initial discussion quite considerably. Is there any interest in returning to the original topic? |
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Mewto Registered user Last page view: 3603 days, 14 hours, 53 minutes and 53 seconds ago. |
Gozer: I'm not a racist and it's pretty sad that I left that impression. I've lived in 7 countries so far, and I'm still only 17. Wouldn't you think that if I was racist I probably would have killed somebody or me by now? Yes, one of my great defects is that I sometimes make generalizations... but that doesn't necessarily means that I'm narrow minded. You say that you can "enlighten" me, then please do so, either here or by e-mail. I don't know if you've ever met fanatics in your life, but I've met a disturbingly large number of people that may be called in the best case "racist", and in the worst fanatics. You've ever been threatened with a knife before? How about being jumped on by a group of muslims? Like I said before, most of them are cool people (those I was friends with generally moved to the respective country at a young age, so they probably weren't affected very much), but I've met my share of lunatics. How do you explain that most muslims that become Christians are either thrown in prison, or if they somehow escape the country, seek asylum because if they return they will be killed? For the Horde! |
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Mewto Registered user Last page view: 3603 days, 14 hours, 53 minutes and 53 seconds ago. |
Another thing: there was a site called Ogrish, which featured videos of executions and gruesome deaths. It was shut down last year, but most of the videos can be found at http://www.liveleak.com/ . I was browsing the website one day, when I came across an execution of a white guy. I think the execution took place in Turkey or Iran, don't remember. Anyway, they tied his hand behind him, threw him on the ground and one of the men took a knife. The others all formed a circle around the man... what happened next made me throw up on my keyboard. And I'm not joking. I won't post vivid details, but suffice to say that the man with the knife cut the white man's head off... the white man was horking the whole time and making these horrible sounds... blood was flowing all over the place. Now tell me, what should I think about a group of 30 people that watch the execution while cheering and praising Allah? Of course, you might say this was terrible but it's a lone incident. Too bad Ogrish is down (maybe it wasn't such a bad idea...), because you could have seen that about 2/3rd's of the videos were filmed in arabic countries. I mean come on, there were less executions in Africa. The other videos I've seen on the site were from 9/11th (people were jumping from the windows) and from the different hurricanes that hit USA. But those weren't executions... Fine, I'll stick to the ADOM and Spoilers section, I really didn't mean to offend anyone. But people in general tend to think of Muslims as victims nowadays, and that pisses me off. I believe in God and I believe that everything that is written in the Apocalypse will happen, maybe that's what made me a little heated. Muslims (or any other religion) aren't exactly heroes in the Apocalypse. I'm also quite to impress (well that's not the word I'm looking for, but I can't remember it now). For the Horde! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/25/2007 at 10:14 (GMT -5) by Mewto] |
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Gozer Unregistered user |
Mewto: Re many things "Yes, one of my great defects is that I sometimes make generalizations... but that doesn't necessarily means that I'm narrow minded." Actually, making gross generalisations all the time is *exactly* what it means to be narrow-minded. "You've ever been threatened with a knife before? How about being jumped on by a group of muslims?" I live in South Africa. I have witnessed racism, violence, and human right violations first hand. "How do you explain that most muslims that become Christians are either thrown in prison, or if they somehow escape the country, seek asylum because if they return they will be killed?" Could you *please* provide some sort of objective evidence to back that up? "Too bad Ogrish is down (maybe it wasn't such a bad idea...), because you could have seen that about 2/3rd's of the videos were filmed in arabic countries." And it never occurred to you that maybe the people who were in charge of Ogrish *deliberately* chose to show a high proportion of videos featuring Arabic violence? "But people in general tend to think of Muslims as victims nowadays" Another gross generalisation. "Muslims (or any other religion) aren't exactly heroes in the Apocalypse." No where in any of my posts have I defended Muslims or tried to make them out to be heroes. You are still young, Mewto, and I strongly encourage you to challenge some of your beliefs - especially those that have been fuelled by the media (online or otherwise) which very often are far more interested in making money than they are in reporting "the truth". |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4243 days, 12 hours, 31 minutes and 26 seconds ago. |
Mewto... man, I'm not even sure where to begin. Yeah, there's instances of Muslims performing bloody executions and persectuing Christians/women/homosexuals/etc, but put that into the perspective of the 100s of million that don't go around chopping off peoples heads. Consider the fact that there are lots of non-Muslims in the world that do exactly the same. It's nothing to do with religion, it's just evil people. Whether they use some religion as an excuse or not makes no difference. Just because you've lived for 17 years without killing anyone doesn't make you racist, by the way. There's a lot of people simply racist in word or thought without being outright fanatics. Prejudice is all about judging someone without knowing them, and make big assumptions about vast groups of people. And it's dangerous too. The reason there's a lot of sympathy towards Muslims at the moment is because people like yourself judge them so harshly (though there's still not enough sympathy I'd say, and too many that use fear or hatred of Muslims as an excuse for furthering their own politic agendas). You may have bad experiences with specific Muslims, but you should be targetting your hatred towards those individuals that attacked or offended you, not to everyone that shares one trait with them. Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 6 hours, 53 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
Gozer: One reason for the 20 lines is that it tends to prevent people for massively quoting other threads. (*hint* :-) ) I think MewTo is responding very civily to posts that have attacked him personally. I may disagree with his ideas, but they do contribute to the debate and are focused on the topic. On the other hand, IMHO, it is off topic to say that somebody is narrow minded and has no interest in challenging their beliefs. Such comments do not move the debate forward (*another hint* :-) ) Good point about Israel. I will break out that topic. [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/25/2007 at 18:24 (GMT -5) by Caladriel] |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 6 hours, 53 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
MewTo: Dude, anybody calling you a racist has some of their own issues that they should examine. I'll be honest in saying that I think you need to examine some of your ideas and think about how you are judging a large group based on a small (if vocal and powerful) portion of the group. I think you are examining these ideas, just as I am examining mine. You might be too far on the side of condemnation, but I might be too far on the side of permissiveness. |
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Caladriel Registered user ReGiStErEd UsEr Last page view: 4701 days, 6 hours, 53 minutes and 6 seconds ago. |
MewTo: As for your last post, few Americans think of Muslims as victims. I think Muslims face more prejudice than permissiveness here. We may feel bad for Iraqi civilians, but that's about as far as it goes. Even there, we tend to be more ticked off at the loss of American soldiers than the deaths of Iraqi civilians. I'm a little worried seeing you say you are angry that people would feel sorry for a group you believe will play a bad part in the "Apocalypse". I have found Revelations even more difficult to decifer than Genesis, but I am rather certain that Islam is not mentioned. Your statement does seem similar to statements by Muslim extremists and Terrorists who have somehow interpretted the Koran as saying Christians and Jews should be killed. Maybe you could expand on why the idea of somebody feeling sorry for Muslims makes you angry. |
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Silfir Registered user Writer of Overly Long Guides Last page view: 4072 days, 13 hours, 13 minutes and 36 seconds ago. |
Gozer, check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam (One of the wikipedia articles that cites its sources with faith...) Just so you know Mewto isn't inventing things. He is right in his observation that a lot of people do a lot of gruesome things in the name of Islam... And they do so lawfully, in several arabic countries, from Egypt to Pakistan. So while it may not be right to condemn muslims as a whole, In my eyes it is justified to condemn the law system of these states; and they are being followed without question by a lot of people, mainly of muslim faith, of course. Of course, the people are told it is right to kill people for apostasy, and so they believe it is. Is it their fault? Well, was it the fault of the Germans to believe everything their elected leaders told them, including that is okay to kill jews? If you say yes to the latter, you'll have to say yes to the former. You drop the golden ball. You kick the golden ball. It slides to the west. Suddenly Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, appears! "That's not how you play Quidditch! are you even listening?" Which direction? (123456789) 4 Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is hit by a bolt of acid! Harry Potter, the apprentice wizard, is annihilated. You hear the ecstatic cries of a large crowd! [Edited 1 time, last edit on 5/26/2007 at 05:19 (GMT -5) by Silfir] |
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Darren Grey Registered user Last page view: 4243 days, 12 hours, 31 minutes and 26 seconds ago. |
It also shouldn't be forgotten that America is one of the biggest users of legalised executions, and that many Christians take the idea of "eye for an eye" too far (even though this directly contradicts Jesus' teachings of offering the other cheek, much as the violence perpetuated by some Muslims directly contradicts Islamic teachings). Waldenbrook, the dwarven shopkeeper, mumbles: "I'd offer 9 gold pieces for yer dwarven child corpse." |
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Mewto Registered user Last page view: 3603 days, 14 hours, 53 minutes and 53 seconds ago. |
Gozer: "And it never occurred to you that maybe the people who were in charge of Ogrish *deliberately* chose to show a high proportion of videos featuring Arabic violence?" Actually, no. For the Horde! |
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